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Water in oil (V7 II)

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Brian UK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2018 at 22:02
That oil seperation system has been used on most of the recent models, well since the lat 80s anyway. Never had oil in the sump on my SPIII.

Earlier small blocks had the oil seperation done as a part of the air box.
All the airboxes/filters on the small blocks have been a pain to service.
Brian.

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Andyb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2018 at 22:43
Have a look at PCV ENHANCERS on ebay or google - these are simple containers to renove the water vapour
Andyb
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote c13pep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 08:04
[QUOTE=motopete] We can't say the weather's been cold and damp lately can we? And the V7 certainly hasn't been standing idle.  So today I popped the rear sump plug out expecting to find clean oil, but instead a steady stream of clear water came out again... Only 2,000 miles since I last drained it.

The amount I removed was enough to drop the dipstick level from max to min, which probaly explains why the engine doesn't appear to use any oil, the level keeps getting topped-up with water


The worry would be not only the amount of water but where has the oil gone!
CHRIS
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 10:22
Still don't believe that that much water can be got from just "condensation".

Where is the intake for the air filter?

"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V7Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 20:20
The last engine I had that was this bad for crankcase ventilation was a 1974 Hillman Avenger... That made mayo quicker than Heinz.
Pete.

Hoho. Yes but Hillman had overcome that problem by 1978, because all the 1974 Avengers were in the scrapyard by then! Car makers in the 70s are a bit like surgeons, they buried their mistakes...
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motopete View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote motopete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 20:27
I reckon I've sussed it, at least in theory. I need to try a few things to prove it:
  1. The only outlet for crankcase fumes/mositure is the breather pipe into the airbox. Every other part of the breather system is connected to the crankcase and therefore sealed.

  2. The breather entering the airbox has to pass through a foam filter on the front of the airbox.
    When the bike was new the foam was clean and offered litle restriction, the crankcase breathed easily and less condensation was formed.

  3. As the miles go by the foam becomes saturated from oil mist and becomes more restrictive. The crankcase can't breathe easily so moist air becomes trapped inside the engine and condenses back to water as the engine cools.  Every hot - cold cycle will create a bit more water.
    It's obvious my foam is wet because a small amount of liquid oil enters the airbox, whereas when the bike was new it didn't.

  4. Regular replacement of the foam filter would probably restore performance of the breathing system, but in fact it's a pain in the a**e to split the airbox and remove the filter so I doubt anyone does this.
    Every other breather system I've seen with a foam filter requires the foam to be replaced or at least cleaned regularly.

  5. Interestingly the foam filter is a stock item at Fowlers and is also cheap. I wonder if they sell many/any?

  6. Euro III only requires the bike to pass the emissions regs in as-new condition; there's no durabilty requirement so performance after (say) 3 years isn't a consideration.

  7. The usual "is it me?" did occur, but a quick search around the various Guzzi sites shows this is a very common problem on modern V7's. It's effectively "by design" if the foam isn't kept clean.
My favourite "solution" at the mo is to run the  drain pipe from the oil seperator to atmosphere and catch the drips in a small catch bottle. I'm thinking this would provide another route for the crakcase to breathe, considering the normal path via the airbox is (I think) clogged, and it would stop any condensed water entering the sump.

What do folks think? Sound plausible??
Apologies for the long ramblings of a madman... Pete.
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 20:37
Interesting - just a thought, my LM's PO had put a catch bottle on (a small 250ml used plastic oil bottle on a bracket) however the "chuffing" from the vent hose simply blew the contents out everywhere. Was never any drips in it so ended up taking it off, the oil was being spread on the underneath of the gearbox already anyway so no difference.



"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 22:14
Why not remove the foam?  What function does it have?
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motopete View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote motopete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 13:00
I can only think of two reasons for the foam:

1.       Trap any particles in the breather system and stop them being drawn into the engine. Having said that the breather pipe feeding the airbox is nice and clean, just a bit oily as you’d expect.

2.       Flame trap in case the engine spits back through the inlet valve, to prevent ignition of fumes in the breather system.

On balance I’m tempted to remove the foam. It wouldn’t be too difficult to add an external filter in-line with the breather pipe, at least that’d be easy to service.

Doesn't look at all straightforward to get the airbox out or apart though...

 

The weird thing is, despite all these niggles and imperfections I still love the bike! It has real character.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 17:58
The worry got to me, so I drained a bit of oil from the sump,
..... aaaaand relax, no water. I guess your model might have different plumbing to my 2009. I have used the bike over winter to keep the battery etc. healthy. Hope you find a solution. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote motopete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 21:43
Googling around Adam I get the impression the problem is far more prevalent on later single TB V7's.  Yours being 2009 will be twin TB I guess.

Not sure how the new V7 III fares?  I know they modified the breather set up compared to V7 II.
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motopete View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote motopete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 19:37
Thought I'd share an update on my nice clean oil, with not a trace of oil in the sump after 2 months continuous riding Smile

 I've disconnected the return pipe from the oil separater and fed it into a catch tube (length of copper tube with a drain at one end). Result Thumbs Up 

The sump's remained squeaky clean, so have the rocker covers. 
The catch tube collects a small amount of water plus a bit of oil each week (more water than oil). Over the last 2 months I've drained around 100cc of water, I know because I've been saving every drop.

Now my engine actually uses some oil - as I'd expect - previously it never seemed to use much oil because the crappy breather system was dumping enough water into the sump to offset the oil burnt by the engine.

Finally, I see the oil return pipe to the sump has been deleted on the V7 III.... I wonder why? Ermm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldlegs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 22:28
With not a trace of oil in the sump? only kidding we know what you mean.
Have you blocked the other end where the return pipe used to fit. Any chance of a pic. Steve.

Current: Beta Motard M4. Beta Motard tourer. Beta Super Motard. Beta Alp. Moto Guzzi V7 11 Stone.
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V7Chris View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V7Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 07:42
Originally posted by oldlegs oldlegs wrote:

With not a trace of oil in the sump? only kidding we know what you mean.
Have you blocked the other end where the return pipe used to fit. Any chance of a pic. Steve.

+1 pleaseSmile
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Brian UK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 10:09
It's fairly clear that the oil separator in the frame tube doen't get hot enough to stop the water vapour  condensing, so it can end up in the sump.

The older V50 etc. used a plastic separator which was part of the air box, so probably didn't work as a condensor.
Brian.

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