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850 GT Complications

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Dave P. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 May 2015 at 10:21
Morning chaps.
As I mentioned yesterday at the tail end of the Garmin sat' nav' thread I was off to collect the object of my desires,an 850 GT.
I had viewed it the previous day but was unable to test ride it because of what the vendor believed was a flat battery.It did start and sounded fine but stalled as I pulled away then would not start again.
We agreed that I'd return the next day in the car with the battery off my old V7 Special,fit it to the GT and then Caroline would drive home and I'd ride the bike home.
I fitted my battery to the GT,turned on the ignition and pressed the button........Nowt!!
"Oh fiddle sticks, whoever would have thought it" I said.
So,did the usual things,checked for voltage at the starter button and at the relay .I got voltage at the button but not at the relay.I then found that the relay earth wire was hanging on by a couple of strands so replaced it.Then,I turned the key and the engine started.But I had not pressed the button! I turned it off quickly as it sounded as though the starter motor was continuing to run.
Starter button stuck on maybe? So I disconnected one lead from the starter button to check,turned the key and the engine started.
Turned it off again as the starter motor was I think still running.
So, where is the relay getting its juice from with the starter button disconnected?
How come it ran fine a week ago when it was MOT'd
Some Loop's have a start position on the key switch This is not one of them.
I've recruited a mate with a van so we are picking it up tomorrow evening. Then I shall put it in the shed and start investigating in comfort in the company of BBC R4 Extra. I'm sure it will be something simple.
But,in the meantime,I'm sure that some of you clever electrical johnnies
could possibly contribute some thoughts and save me some time and frustration.I'm going Loopy.(oh dear)
I just want to ride the bugger!!!
Many thanks in anticipation.
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.
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Tarquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tarquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 10:49
Just wondering if the starter relay has failed internally.

I would imagine that there is a permanent 12v feed to it and that when the starter button is pressed it forms the link and bingo the starter motor is energised.

Is it possible that it is somehow allowing the link to be permanent.

The click no crank thread has some wiring diagrams on it that may be useful but I would simply swap a relay over first.

If my understanding of how the starter circuit works is incorrect, I apologise.Thumbs Up
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Ken-Guzzibear View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken-Guzzibear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 11:56
Well it is only one of 3 items
Starter button sticking
Start relay stuck on or wired wrong
The start solenoid stuck
 
If it is a Bosch (or other) starter take it along to local Bosch dealer they can refurbish a starter for less than half the cost of a new one well worth the investment, get a relay set from Pyro Dan they are good quality micro relays real useful for a start relay as well as relays for horns/fog spot lights and other accessories
 
Check the start button/switch is actually not sticking
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 12:05
Yes,I pondered the same question too.I forgot to mention that I took a new relay with me and fitted it.The original, which had not been working when fitted to the bike,I brought home with me.I bench tested it half an hour ago and it works perfectly.I did wonder if I had wired the replacement relay incorrectly ,the terminal numbers are tiny and very hard to see.
However,even if I had got it wrong I can't see how it could give an uninterrupted feed to the solenoid,especially with the starter button disconnected. I can't wait to get it home (kid...new toy!)as you might imagine.The electrical fault makes it even more intriguing.I'm supposed to be working on a Laverda at the moment but I have a feeling it may suffer a short delay.
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 12:13
Originally posted by Ken-Guzzibear Ken-Guzzibear wrote:


Well it is only one of 3 items
Starter button sticking
Start relay stuck on or wired wrong
The start solenoid stuck
 
If it is a Bosch (or other) starter take it along to local Bosch dealer they can refurbish a starter for less than half the cost of a new one well worth the investment, get a relay set from Pyro Dan they are good quality micro relays real useful for a start relay as well as relays for horns/fog spot lights and other accessories
 
Check the start button/switch is actually not sticking


Hi Ken, As I said,the start button I disconnected so it cant be that.
The relay wiring seems to be favorite but I still can't see how it can give an uninterrupted supply however you wire it.Am I missing something obvious?
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 12:17
Starter relay wouldn't have an earth wire, one side of its coil is powered from one of the fuses, other side is earthed to (electrical) ground by starter button, at least on the Tonti's usually, i.e. the button is earthed on one side. Maybe even connects to handlebar internally. So if you connected this wire to ground then yes, starter motor will run all the time the ignition is on! Big smile

HTH (?)



Edited by Mike H - 20 May 2015 at 12:18
"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 12:29
[QUOTE=Mike H] Starter relay wouldn't have an earth wire, one side of its coil is powered from one of the fuses, other side is earthed to (electrical) ground by starter button, at least on the Tonti's usually, i.e. the button is earthed on one side. Maybe even connects to handlebar internally. So if you connected this wire to ground then yes, starter motor will run all the time the ignition is on! <img src="smileys/smiley4.gif" alt="Big smile" title="Big smile" />

HTH (?)

Hi Mike. I was hoping you'd show up.I bet you're right too.
I mistakenly thought that because the start button has two wires it was supplying the relay not earthing it.The start button on some machines has only one wire and as you say earths to the handlebar.
I knew it would be something basic.Thanks and I shall report back when I've (you've)sorted it.
Here's hoping for a fine weekend so I can ride it then no doubt address its'other foibles,whatever they turn out to be.
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 12:41
If memory serves default wiring is that ONE wire does the supply to both the relay's coil AND its live contact side, and it's brown? With two female spade terminals - ergo, the output contact sends +Volts to the solenoid.

The starter relay wiring mod that everybody raves about removes one brown wire terminal from the relay's live contact, and replaces it with a separate wire connected directly to battery+ via a fuse of its own.

Or if you got the standard type of 6-fuse fusebox under right sidepanel, No.s 5 & 6 tend not to be used (unless it's a Spada or LM2 etc with a time clock, in which case this runs off fuse #6) so you can use one of those as the starter relay fuse. As I did.

HTH

"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ranton_rambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 12:57
I think Greg Bender's site has wiring diagrams for loops. Will try and find a link later, but it's quite easy to navigate the site.
 
What part of the world are you in?
 
Ian
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 13:19
Originally posted by ranton_rambler ranton_rambler wrote:


I think Greg Bender's site has wiring diagrams for loops. Will try and find a link later, but it's quite easy to navigate the site.
 
What part of the world are you in?
 
Ian

Thanks for that.I have got the wiring diagrams for Loops and Greg's website ( no jokes about pasties please)is brilliant.However,the plot thickens.I said that I had mistakenly thought that the starter button was a supply switch and not an earth.I've just checked and low,It is a supply,not an earth.I checked on the V7 Loop and on switching on at the key,one terminal becomes live and on pressing the button the other terminal is live.
From the fuse board a live goes to the button.From the other button terminal a wire goes to the starter relay to energize the coil.From the other side of the coil a wire then goes to what appears to be the live side of the neutral switch.
No,I don't get it.
Help!!
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 15:13
Right,I think I've got it now.I've just been checking in Guzziology,why didn't I start there?
The button is indeed on the supply side.The relay is earthed via the neutral switch so that the bike will start only when in neutral and not in gear. Mr Richardson says that if you want to be able to start in any gear just earth the relay to the frame.Some previous owner must have done just that to my V7 Special Loop because it will start in gear with the clutch disengaged.
Earthing the relay to the frame is what I did on the GT yesterday but the starter motor continued to run and the engine started on the key alone.I can only suppose that I wired the relay up incorrectly in my hurry to get out of the rain.
We shall see.If I'd had more time and less rain I may have been able to ride it home after all.Bugger!!
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 22:51
Didn't know the neutral switch was used like that for loops, but then they stopped doing it on some of the Tonti's? Anyway, well sussed! Big smile


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Tarquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tarquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 07:03
Thanks for posting your findings. Thumbs Up
California 111 70th Anniversary Model, California 1100i 75th Anniversary Model, Honda ST1300


“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 09:32
Originally posted by Tarquin Tarquin wrote:

Thanks for posting your findings. <img src="smileys/smiley20.gif" alt="Thumbs Up" title="Thumbs Up" />

Thanks for your interest.It is quite frustrating in my view if a problem has no resolution and just fades out.
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 20:15
http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/davepinchard/media/DSCF2915_zpscjnuthf5.jpg.html This is just experiment to see if I sorted the photo posting lark.
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.
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