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Teslas killing motorcyclists.

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Guzzi1000SE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guzzi1000SE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2022 at 23:04

Even though I have a deep (in my mind healthy) distrust of AI, it’s not always the fault of machines.   

 

I was shown a video clip today by a biker friend who knows the young man in the footage, which was recorded by the bus in broad daylight.  The bus is stationary and you see the young man riding a small motorbike with L plates passing the bus, the same as anyone of us would do.  Suddenly a red car passes the bus going quite a bit faster and rear ends the bike, knocking the rider of the bike off.  Luckily unlike me, he is only 18 and he bounces and gets straight back up. Ouch    

 

He rings the police who refuse to come out, as no one is seriously injured.  They swap insurance details and leave the incident.  When his insurance company contacts the car driver's insurance company they inform them, they recently stopped insuring the car driver, no reason why given. Wacko 

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Andy M View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 06:55
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

, merely commenting on the timing. 
Average reaction time is best part of half a second, so you actually get the other half second to do something useful.

The journalist has not understood the function. There is no timer. 

When the AI reaches the conclusion it cannot solve the problem it hands back control. This could be days or fractions of a second. If you can draw a flow chart of how it always hands back control in time for the driver to save the likely impossible, yet still functions usefully you can be rich. Mostly the control loop reaches a better conclusion than the human, the failure is technical and the driver gets back control with days to spare or nothing can prevent the collision and it is academic that the function was ended by the airbag deployment.

Tesla lawyers might like the fact that technically it wasn't driving at the terminal point, but I really doubt that will survive a test in UK court. Warning lights that currently come on just before engines sieze don't save manufacturers who make dodgy oil pipes etc. that defence only works if the driver ignored it for days. 

Andy 


Edited by Andy M - 06 Sep 2022 at 07:01
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Brian UK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 08:07
What is the point of handing back control a fraction of a second before catastrophe, apart from the obvious one of avoiding liability?

But the bigger problem is items which remain invisible to the autonomous vehicle.

Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 08:09
Originally posted by Guzzi1000SE Guzzi1000SE wrote:

He rings the police who refuse to come out, as no one is seriously injured.  They swap insurance details and leave the incident.  When his insurance company contacts the car driver's insurance company they inform them, they recently stopped insuring the car driver, no reason why given. Wacko 


At which point I hope he contacted the police again to report an uninsured driver.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guzzi1000SE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 17:43
[/QUOTE]
At which point I hope he contacted the police again to report an uninsured driver.
[/QUOTE]

He first rang the police at the accident site.  I recommend he rang the police again and reported the situation.  I was told he tried and got the same comments from the police and it is now in the hands of the insurance company.  

If it was me (once my old bones allowed me out of the hospital Ouch) or a member of my family, I would be down at the police station, demanding they did something and putting in a formal compliant.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 18:22
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

What is the point of handing back control a fraction of a second before catastrophe, apart from the obvious one of avoiding liability?


It doesn't do that, the time is a consequence not a programmed factor. 

It hands back control when there is no solution. When a vehicle travelling at 60 mph is ten feet from a concrete wall there is no solution, so control is handed back just like when lane markers are over painted or a huge wasp splatters a camera. No timers, just logic applied in the way machines always will, logic that serves the design purpose of dealing with much more likely events outside the designs capability. 

The solution is to extend the design capability by fitting radar. Radar confirms the Father Dougal dilemma: it isn't far away so must be very small. If the solution is identified early enough to brake, the AI never gives up and retains control. A basic ACC/AEB from ten years ago can do this using the radar Tesla removed. 

A human is getting the additional information needed from tiny clues like not needing to refocus our eyes when scanning from the two red dots of the far away car/close by bike to say a road sign that by it's size is close. Humans will make the same error if the road sign is not the standard size we expect. There is no reason a machine cannot do the same but it needs that logic to be qualified. This is the work Tesla have not done properly. There is probably no cost saving and a time penalty when getting rid of the LIDAR involves a huge software development. 

Andy 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 23:16
It's still just a "get out of jail" clause.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red leader one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2022 at 07:29
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