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Cali 1100i Misfire - again

Printed From: guzziriders.org - moto guzzi forum
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Big Block Tonti
Forum Description: Spada, Le Mans and Cali
URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=9598
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 17:59
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Cali 1100i Misfire - again
Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Subject: Cali 1100i Misfire - again
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 09:22
A year ago I was posting up on here - http://www.guzziriders.org/1994-cali-1100i-misfire_topic8309_post79158.html?KW=1100i+misfire#79158" rel="nofollow - http://www.guzziriders.org/1994-cali-1100i-misfire_topic8309_post79158.html?KW=1100i+misfire#79158 - asking for advice on a misfire issue I had. That seems to have been resolved after changing all relays, fuses, cleaning up every electrical connection I could find etc; until now.

New Year's Day I took it out after a 4 week lay-up, starting perfectly, running perfectly, until after 15 miles it started to mis-fire. Here we go again I thought; kept it running, turned round and headed for home. It soon became apparent the symptoms were very different from before, so I suspect a different cause.

The misfire is at low revs, particularly on a constant throttle. Riding through villages for example it was at it's worst. Back on the open road, gave it some throttle and it cleared, accelerating and running normally. Changing gear caused a hesitation, requiring more throttle than normal to clear the misfire. It will not tick over, but starts fine, albeit with extra throttle. 

Got home, changed the plugs, which were black and sooty, as though it was on choke. Checked the action of the choke cable, seemed ok. Left it overnight to see what happens on a cold engine, same thing.

Any ideas? Previously it mis-fired badly throughout the rev range, even assuming it would start. Now it is only at low revs and constant throttle, and will start.....?

Thanks

Ian



Replies:
Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 10:23
Well the black and sooty plugs must be a clue. Somehow too much fuel is getting in.

A dripping injector could cause that, but both would have to be bad.

But worth running a high dose of injector cleaner through the tank.

Equally if the ECU thinks the engine is much colder that it really is, it would be injecting too much fuel. But I would expect that to be through the range.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 11:36
Yes, it is something common to both cylinders. I have planned to give it a good dose of injector cleaner, just for good housekeeping. Wishing thinking that it may fix it!

I wondered if a temperature sensor was playing up, as you say. I was puzzled in that case as to why it cleared under load, and over 2000 rpm'ish. However, if it was a temperature sensor, why would it be displaying the same symptoms the following morning, cold engine and fresh plugs?

If it was a carb set-up I would be looking for a restriction in the pilot jet system. As it is fuel injected.....?

Bear in mind this is a 1994 model, so I don't know how sophisticated the electronics are. It has a manual, cable-operated choke.


Posted By: Hbhonda
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 12:31
might be wild goose chase but had a similar problem with the Cali barnfind, managed to get mel Robinson to look at it . He reset the tappits but the main problem was the cold start mechanism on the top of the throttle bodies was not shutting off properly when the lever was shut back, 4 days of penetrating oil did the trick worth a try

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Honda CBF 1000 2000 Cali EV (in bits)(not any more)


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 14:07
Hi HB. Thanks for the input. First thing I did was to check the action of the choke cable, and it seems to be shutting off ok. As it has been in fairly regular use, I doubt it has developed the same fault on each throttle body. My thought was perhaps the cable was snagging up, which would affect both. If that was the issue, it should start and run ok from cold, one would have thought, but the misfire is there straight from cold start-up. 

I gave it a major service early this year, including checking the tappets. All well there.

Ian


Posted By: Hbhonda
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 14:25
next option might be to pull out the injectors get them cleaned and the spray pattern checked, both mine were replaced with second hand ones

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Honda CBF 1000 2000 Cali EV (in bits)(not any more)


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 13:25
Gents. Just to be clear, does the manual choke lever/cable arrangement simply open the throttle a little to prevent stalling when the engine is cold, while the ECU and temperature sensors adjust the fuel mixture? Can anyone pinpoint which is the air temperature sensor, please?

Thanks. Ian


Posted By: s1120
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 13:40
Dont have any experience with Guzzi's, but do with automotive FI systems. One questen for you..  The next morning when you started it up, did it skip right off the bat, or after it warmed a bit? If its right off the rip, at a cold start, it doesnt sound like the "choke" or temp sensor. Because it should be running rich at that point. If its after it warms a bit that it starts skipping, and you know the "choke" system is moving, I would look first at the temp sensor. Pretty common issue in the auto world. Its telling the ECM that its dead cold all the time, and pumping fuel in..  

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Paul B

02 Cali stone metal


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 15:07
Can't tell you where the air temp sensor is, but it's item 49 on the diagram. The wiring colours might help to identify it.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_California_1100i.gif" rel="nofollow - http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_California_1100i.gif

However, I would expect the oil temp sensor to be the culprit (item 47). This, when indicating cold will tell the ECU to make the mixture rich as the engine is cold.

Conversely cold air is more dense, so a cold reading on the air temp sensor will weaken the mixture.
If either sensor is poorly connected, or not connected the ECU gets a clod reading. The resistance of the sensors reduces exponentially with heat.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Hbhonda
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 18:40
think the air temp sensor is behind the left hand side panel 

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Honda CBF 1000 2000 Cali EV (in bits)(not any more)


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 19:54
Gents. Thanks for your input. Hi Paul. Good point, and I did not explain it clearly in my initial post. When I started it from cold; probably not as cold as where you areExclamation; it started missing immediately it started. That is counter-intuitive, which I am finding is a trait of Moto-GuConfusedzzis.

Brian, thanks for that. Trouble is I need to find it on the bike, and, despite having parts books, riders intsruction book, workshop manual, none seem to make things very clear! 

Thanks Hbhonda, I will see if I can trace it.

Meanwhile, I removed all relays and fuses (as I have done several times in the past!), sprayed everything with contact cleaner, worked them in and out of their positions a bit. Likewise the multi-connector on the ECU, although it looks very good; and about any other sensor or connector I could see. Then cleaned them off and sprayed them up with Dampstart. I had added a good dose of Redex injector cleaner to the fuel. It started right up, without choke, kept it running on the throttle, no probs.  Applied the choke to keep the revs up until it warmed, kept it running. Stopped it, got my gear on and took it for a 30 mile run in mixed conditions. It ran faultlessly. Back home, I checked the plugs; colour perfect.

So why I am I not a happy beast? Because this bike will not give up it's secrets easily. What was it which cured it? Is it cured? How can I trust it not to happen again? After the issues I had a year ago; see previous threads; same thing. I don't know what one single thing sorted it. Then, in August, 2 days before I was due to ride 500 miles to a rally in the Scottish Borders, the mis-fire returned. Just as before, with no apparent reason. I went through a similar process of checking and cleaning everything I could, but too late for the rally. It took a week of fiddling to get going, by which time the rally was over. Again, I don't know which one single thing got it running again.

It does not want me to trust it......

Cheers. Ian


Posted By: s1120
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 13:26
When you cleaned the relays did you put them back in diferent places??  SOme of these years were known for bad ones, and you might have just moved them to diferent slots. Might want to get some new good ones, and replace them all. 

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Paul B

02 Cali stone metal


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 17:38
Originally posted by Bodmin Beast Bodmin Beast wrote:

Gents. Just to be clear, does the manual choke lever/cable arrangement simply open the throttle a little to prevent stalling when the engine is cold, while the ECU and temperature sensors adjust the fuel mixture? Can anyone pinpoint which is the air temperature sensor, please?

Thanks. Ian



Don`t know this engine but the cold start on fuel injection bikes is usually, as you say, with tickover speeded up to prevent stalling. My RT1150 is the same and has the temperature sensor in the middle of the air filter to monitor the induction air flow temperature. However failure of this sensor puts the ECU into a default setting to keep the engine running albeit `rough`, I do not know if Guzzis have this level of sophistication.

CHRIS

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you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza
Honda CB77 project



Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 23:45
Hi Paul. Earlier in the year, when I had the other type of misfire problem (!) I installed all new relays and fuses, just for good housekeeping.

Chris, as Brian mentioned earlier, which I am sure is correct, it is the oil temperature sensor which richens the mixture when the engine is cold. However, it is working ok again now.....

Next time, I will have to clean one fuse at a time, one relay at a time, one connector at a time etc etc, trying it each time to see if I can weedle out which is the culprit, if indeed there is just one culprit, and that is assuming the problem each time is simply caused by a dodgy connection. Moto Guzzi's are known to have such issues it seems, particularly if they are left standing for any length of time, or, as per a comment I read in another thread, if we are foolish enough to take them out in the rain!


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 07:53
Since you fitted new relays and fuses, I doubt any of them are the problem. Yes it's just possible one new relay is a dud, but highly unlikely.

Certainly woth going round as many wiring connectors as you can, pull them apart, spray some contact cleaner and lubricant (Servisol or similar) into them and put back together. If they look bad when you pull them apart, spend a little time cleaning.



-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 08:51
Brian. As i said in my post on Sunday evening, I removed all the relays and fuses, all connectors that I could find, including the multi connector on the ECU, sprayed them with electrical contact cleaner, worked then a bit to polish them up as appropriate. After re assembly I wiped them all off and sprayed with damp start, in an attempt to prevent any moisture getting in going forward. 

I agree, I don't think the current fuses and relays are faulty. My concern is a dry or in other way poor connection, which I understand is a common issue with these models.

Ian


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 09:22
It has been known to find a dry joint on the ECU board. But how you find it is another matter. These occasional faults are always the most difficult to diagnose. They go away when they know you are looking, only to reappear when your back is turned. Angry


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 10:09
Brian. Is that inside the ECU? I assume it is not possible to open it up to effect repairs? If not, are replacement ECU's available, do you know, and if so, from whom, and how much?

Iam


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 12:59
my sport corsa had a cutting out problem ,it would run for a day .week.months brill then would cut out and play up all the time it went on for over a year . In the end i surspensed the fuel tank above the motorcycle so i could run it but still get to all the wiring so i could wiggle or pull on connectors . I also broke the seal and went inside the ecu .If you do a sreach of ecu repairs there are a few companies and some places will sell you a second hand one ,prices vary from 100 quid to 400 quid i found .I was lucky as in the beginning i got all relays ,TPS etc free under warrenty .All the best i feel your pain

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1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 17:10
And what, in the end, was causing it Johno?




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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 17:38
Yes, that would be inside the box.

Now I can't tell you if there is any problem with your ECU or not. But an alternative and not so expensive way forward if you think there is, would be http://www.myecu.biz/MyECU/index.htm" rel="nofollow - Cliff Jefferies My ECU . He makes one which will be a direct replacement. Sold in kit form or complete.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 17:50
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Yes, that would be inside the box.

Now I can't tell you if there is any problem with your ECU or not. But an alternative and not so expensive way forward if you think there is, would be http://www.myecu.biz/MyECU/index.htm" rel="nofollow - Cliff Jefferies My ECU . He makes one which will be a direct replacement. Sold in kit form or complete.
this is the way to go if ECU was at fault . Mike the list of small issues were from HT leads , crack in battery lead, running weak hence me going into ECU to rich it up a bit .Poor connections , fuse box but in the end I could not say it appeared to be minor things but all together added up to a nightmare . It's been sound now for a good few years and it does not have an easy life lol

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1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 18:45
It has crossed my mind that it could be an intermittent fault; or faults, as there are 2 distinctly different symptoms; in the ECU. It really needs plugging into a diagnostic doo-dah while the fault is being displayed. I have no idea who would have that set-up for a 25 year old Cali around here, in Cornwall.

I am assuming from that interesting Jefferies MyECU website that my ECU is a WMP8. The parts book says 'CDI Unit Assembly'; very helpful! I also read on his site that he does not supply these complete, as the casings are hard to come by, and he doesn't have any kits either! 

Just seen your latest post Johnno. That is how I feel mine is; various little niggling, hard to find things which just pop up to cause trouble! Getting the ECU checked out would be useful, but if it has an intermittent fault, no point in checking it until the fault appears.

Thanks

Ian


Posted By: Hbhonda
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 19:22
still think it sounds like the ev barnfind problem I had , have a look back at the old posts it sounds very similar 

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Honda CBF 1000 2000 Cali EV (in bits)(not any more)


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 19:38
I have checked the cold start mechanism and it works fine. 


Posted By: Hbhonda
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 19:43
ok it's just the symptoms sound the same and I thought the mechanism was working ok 

-------------
Honda CBF 1000 2000 Cali EV (in bits)(not any more)


Posted By: Bodmin Beast
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 13:10
Originally posted by Hbhonda Hbhonda wrote:

ok it's just the symptoms sound the same and I thought the mechanism was working ok 

Yes, it is frustrating, because initial thoughts are that it could be either mechanical, or electrical. As the bike is in fairly regular use, it seemed unlikely, although not impossible, that anything had physically seized up. Also, the fact that, having cleaned up various electrical connections, contacts etc it then worked fine, seems to preclude a mechanical issue. With a barn find you would pretty well expect stuff to be seized up.

I will just keep riding it until it happens again; hopefully not!

Thanks for your input.

Ian


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 13:32
Originally posted by Bodmin Beast Bodmin Beast wrote:

Originally posted by Hbhonda Hbhonda wrote:

ok it's just the symptoms sound the same and I thought the mechanism was working ok 

Yes, it is frustrating, because initial thoughts are that it could be either mechanical, or electrical. As the bike is in fairly regular use, it seemed unlikely, although not impossible, that anything had physically seized up. Also, the fact that, having cleaned up various electrical connections, contacts etc it then worked fine, seems to preclude a mechanical issue. With a barn find you would pretty well expect stuff to be seized up.

I will just keep riding it until it happens again; hopefully not!

Thanks for your input.

Ian
I found myself doubting things I hâd done , if it happen again I would write everything down 

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1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider



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