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Cali Special/Bassa shifting issues

Printed From: guzziriders.org - moto guzzi forum
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Big Block Tonti
Forum Description: Spada, Le Mans and Cali
URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=9363
Printed Date: 26 Jun 2019 at 11:16
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.00 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Cali Special/Bassa shifting issues
Posted By: murringoking
Subject: Cali Special/Bassa shifting issues
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2018 at 01:44
Hi all.  I have had my 98 Cali Special for a year or so now.  The shifting has never been much good.  In fact it makes my BM gearbox seem good!  The main issue is false neutrals while downshifting.  I used to get the odd one when upshifting but I have made suitable technique adjustments to avoid these.  In fact, I would describe upshifting as not bad.
My false neutral situation is getting worse.  It definitely worsens with temp increases.  Downshifting is not too bad when cold.  If I gently preload the shifter prior to throttle off and clutch in then downshifting is more reliable.  Shifting down into second is the worst and unreliable even with preloading.  When this happens the trans is unwilling to go into second with further attempts and I have to release the clutch to eventually select second with accompanying unpleasant noises.
Wondering what the best plan of attack is.  I predict I will be pulling the box which I'm not too worried about.  I have successfully rebuilt a couple of BM boxes in the past.  However, I don't want to do this unnecessarily.  I am running mineral 80W90 GL5 oil which I should probably drop to check for metal.  I have adjusted the clutch to engage with the lever further out which maybe helped a bit.  The shift linkage is not too sloppy.  I replaced the shifter bush a while ago although there is still a bit of slop at the lever.  There may be a bit of slop at the "transfer rocker" which converts the longitudinal movement to sideways movement of the shift mech, but does not seem too bad.  The ball joints don't seem too bad.  Bike has 33000 km on it.  Is there a good procedure on setting up the linkage mech?  I haven't found one by searching.  This may be a good next step to eliminate this from the equation.
The box does not seem overly noisy apart from crunching out of a false neutral.  Neutral with the clutch out is rattly but I assume this is the dry clutch.  A bit of gear whine in 5th but not bad.  It never jumps out of gear once successfully selected.
Any advice on next steps would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks



Replies:
Posted By: Gianni
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2018 at 08:18
This stuff:
 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004UBDGYW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004UBDGYW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
transformed the changes of my various Tonti's - recommended by RaceCo UK.
 
But what you describe does sound like something else...
 
IIRC 3rd to 2nd does not involve the major cog reorganication that 3rd to 4th/4th to 3rd does.
 
When you change 3rd to 2nd and it baulks, what happens if you change back up to 3rd and then try downshifting again?
 
When you say you adjusted the clutch, do you mean along the cable or at the actuating widget into the back of the gearbox?


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Le Mans 1, Spada, Cali 1, T3 Mongrel, Le Mans V, Quota x 2, Stelvio TT


Posted By: murringoking
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2018 at 09:00
Thanks for the response.  I adjusted the clutch cable at the rear adjuster screw to give a few screws out at the lever for a take up towards the end of the lever travel.  It's probably taking up a little later than I'd like but the clutch doesn't slip.

When I miss the downshift into second things really get in a mess. Not sure if I've tried shifting back up to third, I'll try this next time it happens.  I'm pretty sure it's not going past second into real neutral as when I eventually find a gear it is never first.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2018 at 10:20
You need to look at Pete Roper's guide to shimming the gearbox in our FAQ section.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2018 at 11:37
if you are not brill with gearboxes top bloke is Nigel at NBS he IS THE go to guy for gearbox issues ...always pop a bit of moly in mine the EV, same box, does now and again find a false neutral but with age n use it has got way better believe it or not which boots I wear make a massive difference to the gearchange mind my bikes are heel toe gear shift , gearbox has not really altered since the 76 V1000 box to be fair they are very clunky and need a very +ve boot to swap cogs as has been said the clutch adjustment is imperative do it right the lever is 2 finger operation

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The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: Gianni
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2018 at 12:18
A second thought...
 
It may be worth pulling the clutch operating mechanism out of the back of the gearbox. There is a little radial needle roller bearing (or two) in there called a Torrington thrust race. I had one commit suicide many years ago and it manifested as occasional locking of the gear change as you describe. Something to do with the load on the mainshaft being just enough to baulk the change.
 
You can get the various gubbins out without removing the gearbox. I did mine in the car park in Ramsey on the Isle of Man with the help of various Guzzisti tipping the bike over as required - some angled nose needle pliers are essential though.
 
The most difficult part was when my friend gave me a lift to Douglas to pick up the spare part - undertaking a GS1000 Suzuki into the corner after Crosby, flat out on a T3 with the centre stand sparking, is all I remember of that terrifying experience. Shocked


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Le Mans 1, Spada, Cali 1, T3 Mongrel, Le Mans V, Quota x 2, Stelvio TT


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2018 at 13:00
Originally posted by Ken-Guzzibear Ken-Guzzibear wrote:

if you are not brill with gearboxes top bloke is Nigel at NBS

Not going to help someone in Australia.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: red leader one
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2018 at 16:36
LOL Very dry,very dry


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2018 at 11:02

" I used to get the odd one when upshifting but I have made suitable technique adjustments to avoid these."

What adjustments? Depending, by making upshifting better  could have made the downshifting worse.

In my experience all the big block Guzzi boxes were stiff and clunky. Yes always worse when hot.  I also had a 1983 BMW R80 and yes that was always better. The pedal linkage doesn't help, although the R80 had a linkage too, and was well worn at that, so not convinced that's a complete answer.

I found SAE 85/W140 oil with a dash of molyslip helped greatly, also doing the gear change simultaneously with pulling the clutch lever.

However one possibility is the pedal is not going down far enough, i.e. reached the end of its travel.


EDIT: 30/10/18 - ^ don't know why that came out huge, but was using mobile. (?!)





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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: murringoking
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2018 at 23:44
Thanks to all for replies.  I have had a look at the linkage system and found that the mount at the pedal has come loose.  This is despite me loctiting it on previously.  The ball joints all seem pretty good but the loose bolt may be causing an issue and would explain the gradual degradation.  Will see if tightening this fixes things.  
Another question re the linkage, the lever at the gearbox is twisted - see image.  This doesn't look right.  The bike has been down on the LHS (a previous owner).  When I got the bike the front gear shifter was bent up a bit, which I have straightened.  This force could have transferred through the linkage and bent the other lever?  Or is it supposed to be like this?  It looks like a cast piece so it may not be too easy to straighten.



Posted By: red leader one
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2018 at 19:24
I'm no engineer but that ball joint does not look comfortable.


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 20:53
Ditto, looks completely wrong to me.

OK so now we're getting more info, so it's been dropped on that side which has bent a couple of things.

Yes I'm not sure how that g/box lever will take to straightening efforts. I think it is supposed to be steel tho?

EDIT: the ball joint should be at right angles to it as far as I know.





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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 22:10
Yes, definitely, you can just see that in the parts list.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Kidneb
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2018 at 15:06

I dont think the lever is bent by accident,- looks the same on my LM3. 
But the angle between the rod and the ball joint should be 90 degrees or close to.

The lever is some sort of drop forged steel, its tough and you can easily bend it if you find it necessary.

https://image.ibb.co/c3PzNf/P1000662.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://image.ibb.co/c3PzNf/P1000662.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/hQvdXf/P1000661.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://image.ibb.co/hQvdXf/P1000661.jpg

     //Ben


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2018 at 15:13
Yes I do now remember there being an angle, so your first pic looks correct.

But this now implies that whatever is at the bottom is not right.

Not got rearsets on by any chance?



-------------
"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2018 at 16:20
Well it is a different lever at the bottom, with two bolt holes. The rear one is used. But the angle at the top doesn't look the same as Kidneb's picture.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2018 at 19:26
Originally posted by red leader one red leader one wrote:

I'm no engineer but that ball joint does not look comfortable.



It might look a bit better using other hole in bottom lever

CHRIS

-------------
you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza project
BMW R1150RT
1200 Sport project


Posted By: Kidneb
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2018 at 20:48
Originally posted by c13pep c13pep wrote:

Originally posted by red leader one red leader one wrote:

I'm no engineer but that ball joint does not look comfortable.



It might look a bit better using other hole in bottom lever

CHRIS

Yeah,- that would be the first thing to do. The rear hole must be home made? But why?
You even get a shorter lever action using the front one.


Posted By: murringoking
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2018 at 05:19
Hi all.  Thanks again for the replies.  I have a theory that the ball joint nut coming loose at the shifter is why my downshifting has gone bad.  However, I have also dissembled the linkage system and given all ball joints and pivots a good clean and grease.  Re the angle of the top ball joint, I think the PO must have moved the linkage back to the second hole.  My research tells me that there is supposed to be two holes and the one nearest the pivot point results in better shifting.  Presumably this is because any movement at the toe/heel lever results in greater movement at the gearbox in this configuration.  However, when he did it I don't think he adjusted the linkage lengths to compensate.  I have adjusted things that that I have a nice parallelogram shape in the linkage.  Double checked that everything goes through the full range of movement without fouling anything.  
I haven't tested this out but will report back when I do.
BTW there is no way that lever at the gearbox end is going to be readily twisted/bent.  It is very strong cast (I think) steel.  The foot shifter/linkages will bend first.  My foot shifter was bent up a bit at the toe end and I've successfully straightened it.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2018 at 07:33
The hole nearer the pivot will move less for a given movement of the foot than the hole further away. Thus to change gear your foot would have to travel further (but will require slightly less pressure on the pedal).

Change to the other hole, further away, and see what difference that makes.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Zambuck
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2018 at 10:02
I rode a Cali Special for many years and had a very similar problem with gear shifting. It would get progressively worse until the left foot peg fell off. For some unfathomable reason the footpeg bolt would sheer every few thousand miles. Might not be the case with your Cali but check that the left footpeg bolt hasnt sheered (if you havent already checked it while chasing the problem)


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1000 Le Mans II Agostini


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2018 at 16:41
Unless I'm missing something, the pedal part of that linkage looks homemade. Moto Guzzi wouldn't provide two holes for where to fix the ball joint just in case you wanted to change how far your foot moves when changing gear. Or would they?




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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: murringoking
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 23:37
Quick update.  As Brian points out, the nearer hole results in a shorter lever and less travel for any given toe/heel movement (not sure why I was thinking otherwise).  BTW my understanding is that the Calis come standard with two holes.  Whatever, mine has two and it was set in the nearer hole.  I have shifted it to the outside hole (standard position?) and adjusted the linkages for a nice parallelogram shape and no strangely angled ball joints.  I have only had time to do a short test ride (did not get it really hot) but the shifting is far more positive than before.  Only a decent ride will tell for sure but I am hopeful that more involved gearbox work won't be needed at this stage (fingers crossed).
Thanks to all for the help.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2018 at 07:33
Good to hear a positive outcome.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 14:07
OK then! But why 2 holes if the other makes the angles all wrong? Wacko




-------------
"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 14:25
Pass. But it is Italian.

-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 18:52
Weight saving? Big smile




-------------
"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Keef Mayhem
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 13:28
Both my LM4 and LM5 have two holes in the lower shift linkage, the gear change is much better using the front hole, less lever travel at the toe end needing a bit more force makes the change noticibly faster to me.


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So many bikes, so little time !


Posted By: murringoking
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 21:44
A follow up.  Finally got around to a decent ride on the Cali yesterday.  300 km so bike was well and truly warm.  No missed down shifts.  One missed up shift, probably due to rider fatigue and not being positive enough with my heel.  Conclusion is that the outer hole is definitely the way to go, in my case at least.  The other thing I've noticed is the downshift is better when initiating the shift sooner rather than later after pulling the clutch.  I had been declutching then waiting for a second or two for the revs to reduce (that flywheel likes to spin on for a while) before initiating the shift.  Yesterday I found that hitting the shifter pretty much immediately gave a far nicer result.  Interesting.
Anyway, lesson learned: if you have a false neutral issue check the linkage first.
Thanks to all for their suggestions.


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 23:23
Yes I found it best to pull the clutch and push/pull the pedal simultaneously. (Works on the Ural too.)

I learned to do this with my Honda CD175 (of many years ago) which otherwise would ALWAYS find a false neutral instead, between EVERY gear.





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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."



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