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ETHANOL

Printed From: guzziriders.org - moto guzzi forum
Category: Social section
Forum Name: The Bar.
Forum Description: Normal bar chat with the virtual pint.
URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=9310
Printed Date: 18 Jun 2019 at 05:44
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Topic: ETHANOL
Posted By: Dave P.
Subject: ETHANOL
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2018 at 11:40
ETHANOL.

As yet I've not experienced any ethanol related problems with my Guzzis maybe because I use the "super" varieties of petrol. But none the less I found this article very interesting and informative.


https://armchairbiker.com/ethanol-in-petrol-what-classic-bikers-need-to-know/" rel="nofollow - https://armchairbiker.com/ethanol-in-petrol-what-classic-bikers-need-to-know/

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TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.



Replies:
Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2018 at 23:21
Yes very interesing!



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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2018 at 23:40
My Norge fuel tank must be a couple of litres bigger now.
And Guzzi say the Norge is ethanol proof.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 11:21
That article certainly makes you think but maybe Brexit will allow UK to not be bound by EU regulation, who knows!!

I know from my time at BMW that there were problems with plastic car petrol tanks `softening` and distorting for some reason
CHRIS

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you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza project
BMW R1150RT
1200 Sport project


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 11:25
Ethanol is dodgy stuff. I had one too many ethanols in the pub last night and have woken up with a headache.

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: TooJuicy
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 12:09
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

My Norge fuel tank must be a couple of litres bigger now.
 
How has that expansion affected the fit & finish of the tank? I have come across a Breva/Sport where the handlebars/clamps hit the tank on full lock.
 
The tank on my 1200 Sport (same part as Norge?) began to distort - evidenced by difficulty in fitting rear bolt and then "cracks"/blemish lines in the paintwork.
 
Story from dealer was Guzzi were now buying tanks with a new, more resistant plastic compund. I'm sceptical of course and wonder how much of that is Marketing. Either way I now run the fuel in my (new) tank as low as possible when I'm not using bike. Previously I left the tank full, a legacy of previous bikes with metal tanks.
 
Tony


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 12:31
Not affected the paintwork.
Had to file off the back corner of the top yoke/handlebar casting to help it clear the tank, but there is a mark on both sides. Also had to file the rear hole to get the bolt in.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 12:43
Now on my third tank experience shows that unsurprisingly the tank slumps down slightly and expands length ways so the bolt holes won't line up. You can get the bolt to screw in but only by levering it with a long extension and socket. I preferred to stick a metal plate over the top of the bracket and drill a fresh hole so I can get a 6mm locknut on the end of a bolt. Fortunately there was just enough room to miss the welded on nut from the original fixing under there which shows how much the tank had stretched.

Can't really forgive Piaggio for making such a stupid decision to use plastic when ethanol was such a widely know problem. I know they replaced the tank twice under warranty but each time cost me time and aggravation, (and that was after having the engine replaced for a serious oil leak). Surely this must make me either the most patient or stupid Piaggio consumer ever, or maybe now at my age I can just shrug my shoulder and say, "Ah, so what!".Hug


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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour but green & black is nice too!


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 12:48
But think of all those owners having problems now after the warranty period has ended.
My tank was fine for years, then suddenly decided to expand. As far as I know same fuel source.



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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 14:08
Unable to see the reasoning behind supplying a replacement in the full knowledge it was doomed to fail I did badger Piaggio over quite a long period trying to get them to supply a metal tank. No joy from that as Piaggio claimed it would be impossible to fit one to my model with the fuel pump being in a different place. Sounded like a load of bollocks to me and I had intended to press on with a claim, but then I suddenly had more pressing appointments with some chemotherapy and a soggy fuel tank became somewhat less important. I'm amazed that those extremely litigious bunch in the US didn't try to force Piaggio to replace the defective parts, or maybe they did and didn't bother to tell the rest of us?

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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour but green & black is nice too!


Posted By: TooJuicy
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 16:50
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

But think of all those owners having problems now after the warranty period has ended.


It is scandalous really, making bikes in knowledge or even suspicion t he petrol tanks not fitting after a while.

Fair play to Piaggio though, they gave me a new tank out of warranty ex-gratia, I  had only to pay the labour charge. I believe because I've always had the Guzzi serviced by a Guzzi dealer. 

Tony


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 10:08
I don't actually think it's ethanol.

When I had my Tiger 955i with a plastic tank it was well known that if you took the tank off when it was full of petrol and left it for any length of time the fittings wouldn't line up as the tank would distort. And that was early 2000s well before ethanol arrived.


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Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 11:00
Oh well that settles it then, the whole ethanol debated has been proved to be a myth. Your experience with one poorly designed fuel tank from Triumph and all the problems suffered by any number of other motorcycle owners and manufacturers obviously count for nothing. Unbelievable.Stern Smile

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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour but green & black is nice too!


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 11:30
Of course, at the minute, we could all run on premium petrol with no Ethanol in it to ease the problem but even that looks to be doomed long term.

CHRIS


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you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza project
BMW R1150RT
1200 Sport project


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 11:50
Hi Chris
There is problem with that, and that is many owners of newer machines have reported issues of poor running on premium grade fuel simply because the engines are not designed to use it. It's OK for the owners of older machine that will run on any old fuel but times have moved on a bit since they first trundled out of the factory.

The problem with ethanol fuel can easily be establish by simply taking out the rear mounting bolt of any new plastic fuel tank that has been filled with it. No need to remove the tank but when you try to put the same bolt back in again you won't be able to do it because you'll find the holes no longer line up. Please don't take my word for it, ask someone like Baldric or any other experienced Guzzi mechanic.


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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour but green & black is nice too!


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 11:51
Originally posted by BobV7 BobV7 wrote:

Oh well that settles it then, the whole ethanol debated has been proved to be a myth. Your experience with one poorly designed fuel tank from Triumph and all the problems suffered by any number of other motorcycle owners and manufacturers obviously count for nothing. Unbelievable.Stern Smile


I'm only reporting my own and others' experiences. No need to be sarcastic.

Older riders may remember Cleveland Discol which was widely on sale for many years in the 1950s and contained 10% - 20% ethanol (supplied by Distillers Company).

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/march-1934/48/alcohol-fuel-high-compression-engines" rel="nofollow - https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/march-1934/48/alcohol-fuel-high-compression-engines

I am unaware of any problems caused by this and would welcome any evidence.

I'm not saying there aren't problems experienced by people; what I am suggesting is that modern petrol is packed with substances like benzene (a known carcinogenic) which to my mind are more likely to be causing problems.

For what it's worth I use ordinary pump petrol in my bikes (except the V50 which specifies 97 octane). I've left many bikes unused for months without draining tank or carb(s) and they've started first kick. I've not experienced any of the issues described by others in any of my old or modern bikes.

Obviously I lead a charmed life and have done since I started riding over 50 years ago.


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Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 12:31
"I don't actually think it's ethanol."

Well Ian, did you say that or not, and what evidence did you provide to back it up with apart from problem you had years ago with a Triumph fuel tank you'd left laying around? That's not being sarcastic, it's putting your statement into context and backed up by you making further unsubstantiated claims about benzine causing the problem; unless you think that soft fuel tanks are a form of cancer?

Length of time doing something doesn't make anyone an expert. I've been riding on buses all my life and I still couldn't drive one.


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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour but green & black is nice too!


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 12:48
I said "think". I still await real evidence that it's ethanol not something else.

But believe what you like.


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Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 13:09
I got the chance to drive a bus once. It seemed like a doddle until the back wheels started jumping as I took a bend too fast. It was one of those tanner to half crown moments Happy days...


Posted By: jpc
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 13:53
Originally posted by BobV7 BobV7 wrote:


 I've been riding on buses all my life and I still couldn't drive one.

Bummer Unhappy
They wouldn't let me, either.


Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 14:16


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 14:20
There's usually a very good reason behind this!LOL

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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour but green & black is nice too!


Posted By: jpc
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 15:47
Go get your own bus, they said.
So I did.






Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 16:11
[QUOTE=BobV7] Hi Chris
There is problem with that, and that is many owners of newer machines have reported issues of poor running on premium grade fuel simply because the engines are not designed to use it. It's OK for the owners of older machine that will run on any old fuel but times have moved on a bit since they first trundled out of the factory.


Last time I tried premium in a V50/3 the down pipes started to glow resulting in having to faff around with the timing, however, easier solution was to tip the fuel into my 1150RT and revert back to 95. Strange thing is the V50s were originally made to run on 97 octane.

The Cleveland Discol brings back some memories but that was added to leaded fuel in those days so maybe that's the difference

CHRIS


-------------
you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza project
BMW R1150RT
1200 Sport project


Posted By: red leader one
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 16:28
I've driven a coach,long it was.


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 16:45
I like coaches, specially the ones that come in long strings with a kettle up front. You used to be able to get a proper breakfast on them. Whatever happened to them?

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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour but green & black is nice too!


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 17:18
Originally posted by iansoady iansoady wrote:


Older riders may remember Cleveland Discol which was widely on sale for many years in the 1950s and contained 10% - 20% ethanol (supplied by Distillers Company).

I am unaware of any problems caused by this and would welcome any evidence.

But back in the 50s there weren't any pastic tanks.

Also I took the tank off the Norge (not full of petrol - too heavy) and put it back on again the following day, well tried to.
The tank has not distorted, it still fits apart from the fact that it is about 20mm longer thn it used to be. The fork top yoke now hits the tank and the rear bolt is way back from the theaded hole.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 19:12
National Benzole added ethanol too. It usually needed the carburation altered. It was added as an anti-knock agent.
Ethanol may attack plastics but petrol itself is a pretty good solvent too.


Posted By: trophydave
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 19:23
Originally posted by iansoady iansoady wrote:

I don't actually think it's ethanol.

When I had my Tiger 955i with a plastic tank it was well known that if you took the tank off when it was full of petrol and left it for any length of time the fittings wouldn't line up as the tank would distort. And that was early 2000s well before ethanol arrived.

I have a 955 Tiger and the tank has not expanded although I do try and leave as little petrol in it as possible if its not being used.However,before the Tiger I had a Sprint ST.The tank on that had expanded a fair bit making it very hard to refit.


Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 20:27

Also I took the tank off the Norge (not full of petrol - too heavy) and put it back on again the following day, well tried to.
The tank has not distorted, it still fits apart from the fact that it is about 20mm longer thn it used to be. The fork top yoke now hits the tank and the rear bolt is way back from the theaded hole.
[/QUOTE]

Brian are you absolutely sure that someone isn't shortening the frame on the Norge whilst your back is turned, every time you take the tank off?


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 20:45

Thread is only short of an ironing board
CHRIS


-------------
you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza project
BMW R1150RT
1200 Sport project


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 21:16
Originally posted by Jerry atric Jerry atric wrote:


Brian are you absolutely sure that someone isn't shortening the frame on the Norge whilst your back is turned, every time you take the tank off?


Well we do have borrowers, so maybe they are getting a little more extreme.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 10:40
Originally posted by c13pep c13pep wrote:

[QUOTE=BobV7]

The Cleveland Discol brings back some memories but that was added to leaded fuel in those days so maybe that's the difference

CHRIS


The ethanol was added instead of tetra-ethyl lead (so essentially to unleaded petrol) but performed partly the same function (ie as an anti-knock agent).


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Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: agriff
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 10:48
I see the article mentions Millers "fuel storage treatment and corrosion inhibitor"
is there any evidence that this stuff works? : 
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69352-millers-oils-eps-ethanol-protection-additive.aspx" rel="nofollow - https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69352-millers-oils-eps-ethanol-protection-additive.aspx


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 11:50
Just as a (rather flawed) experiment I've put some Amal brass jets and Mazak parts into a jam jar half full of ordinary petrol (I assume 5%) and will leave it over the winter to observe results.

I will report back in the spring.


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Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 12:05
Not just petrol tanks keep a check on fuel lines replaced them every 3-4 yrs they get eaten from within , not only leaking but causing issues in the carbs even with fuel filters fitted yes they are supposed to be Ethanol proof. That said never had issues starting even with 3 mth + fuel sat sitting I read in one of the classic mags to use REDEX helps keep the fuel longer? They implied it helped stabilise unleaded fuel, not used the premium fuels DO add redex seems to work ......

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The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: nab301
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2018 at 21:55
Originally posted by Dave P. Dave P. wrote:

ETHANOL.

As yet I've not experienced any ethanol related problems with my Guzzis maybe because I use the "super" varieties of petrol. But none the less I found this article very interesting and informative.


https://armchairbiker.com/ethanol-in-petrol-what-classic-bikers-need-to-know/" rel="nofollow - https://armchairbiker.com/ethanol-in-petrol-what-classic-bikers-need-to-know/

Only got around to reading  this   , interesting indeed , While My B750 has a slightly elongated petrol tank  my '93 MZ  with what i think is an Acerbis manufactured 21 odd litre plastic tank has been ok up till now.
The description of the jelly found in carbs reminded me of an F650 Bmw  that I  recommissioned for a friend after a longish lay off
https://flic.kr/p/PZ8CUC" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/PZ8CUC" rel="nofollow - SAM_0554 (2) by https://www.flickr.com/photos/152673823@N05/" rel="nofollow - Nigel Burgess , on Flickr
https://flic.kr/p/2c3NfQY" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2c3NfQY" rel="nofollow - SAM_0553 (2) by https://www.flickr.com/photos/152673823@N05/" rel="nofollow - Nigel Burgess , on Flickr


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Nigel
Keep smiling , it makes people wonder what you've been up to!
'04 Breva 750, '18 DL250 SUZUKI V STROM,'99 Bmw R1100S, '03Bullet 65 500, '93 MZ301 Saxon fun (offroad)


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 15:48
I got to the stage of draining the carbs (i.e. float bowls off and tipped out) if bike was going to be left for any length of time. Never needed to do that 10+ years ago.





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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 20:03
[IMG] https://postimg.cc/grpcHPkS" rel="nofollow"> [/IMG] https://postimg.cc/grpcHPkS" rel="nofollow"> https://postimg.cc/cthbQ34S" rel="nofollow"> https://postimg.cc/tsM8SFdR" rel="nofollow"> https://postimg.cc/5HNNvh5Y" rel="nofollow">


Result of leaving petrol in Monza carbs for long time, note the idle jet is rotted away bottom right of float bowl, both carbs in same state. Possibly the worst I`ve ever had to deal with and I assume it`s all down to the dreaded Ethanol
CHRIS








-------------
you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza project
BMW R1150RT
1200 Sport project



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