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Single TB 750 AND V7Mk2 e.f.i. Accessory

Printed From: guzziriders.org - moto guzzi forum
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Small Blocks
Forum Description: V35 up to V750 including B750, V7 etc.
URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=2556
Printed Date: 10 Dec 2018 at 11:55
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Topic: Single TB 750 AND V7Mk2 e.f.i. Accessory
Posted By: Pupton
Subject: Single TB 750 AND V7Mk2 e.f.i. Accessory
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2015 at 08:12
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Replies:
Posted By: Pupton
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 09:56
From Mr Barry Joyce. Teddington Middlesex:

Hi Dave!
I bought a new V7 Stone (6speed) in May whenI fell in love after a test ride.
I picked up my bike but after a couple of days I wondered if I had done the right thing. (Perhaps I should have taken a more extended test ride). I had to warm the engine for 3 or 4 minutes before I could pull away without stalling. Even if I just blipped the throttle before warming, the engine would die. Once I was running, the engine was not happy below about 4000 revs. The (aftermarket) exhausts would pop and bang on the overrun.
I decided to join the Moto Guzzi club to see if any others were experiencing the same problems.
When the club magazine (Gambalunga) arrived I saw the advert for Finebauforge and decided to give one of the 8 Jet modules a try as there was an unconditional money back guarantee.
The module arrived in 2 or 3 days (great service) and I promptly fitted it to the bike. This took only about 20 minutes and believe me, I am far from a mechanical or electrical expert!
The improvement was remarkable! My little V7 is now a joy to ride. All the popping, cold starting and uneven running has been eliminated completely.
I have not done any MPG testing yet but my initial feeling is that I am probably getting better mileage than before because I am not constantly trying to keep the revs above 4000 to try and keep the engine in the Sweet Spot. Now it runs sweetly at any revs.
In short, I am delighted! I now have the bike I expected when I bought it.
Thanks a million.
Barry


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 19:00
I note the mention of "aftermarket exhausts", not being factory fitted OEM, will aggravate this behaviour if of the more 'free flowing' type. Less restrictive exhausts tend to make engines run leaner.






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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: deltic
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2015 at 00:03
2013 v7 racer had one on my bike for 10.000 miles so far no probs


Posted By: sonicboom
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2015 at 00:34
So do we have any other people that have used this product?

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Twisty rider


Posted By: Oafski
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2015 at 13:02
Got one on my 750 Breva with Mistral Silencers. Told Dave what it was going on and it arrived all set up. Well pleased with it.


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OCD- Old Coffin Dodger
"Lags Droopfinger-The Biking Viking" "Good Deeds never go unpunished"


Posted By: Jim Mac
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2015 at 13:49
Got one on my 2012 Norge, transformed a bike i was going to get rid of after a week into a pleasure to own

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Norge 1200 GT 8v   T5 Polizia
Too old to die young


Posted By: oldlegs
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2015 at 22:21
got one on my V7 11 stone, very good up grade but still not like a pair of well tuned carbs. Steve.


Posted By: Oulton
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 17:58
Just fitted one of these to my V7 Stone Special, Before it wouldn't run properly with the high level 2 into one pipe with reverse cone mega without disconnecting the lambda. Popped this device on in 5 minutes and now the bike runs great!


Posted By: Andyb
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 10:00
Hi Oulton,
So when you just removed the lamdas how was the fueling?
AndfyB


Posted By: Oulton
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 13:58
A huge improvement, No warning lights illuminated, Still a little bit of popping and banging on the overrun. Even better with the finbar.


Posted By: Andyb
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 16:28
I have removed the lambdas on my 1TB V7 - it has Mistrals with the DB limiters fitted - and am very happy with that set up. I guess I have been lucky.   The Mistrals / no lambda combination seems spot on to me but maybe your exhaust system is less restrive than mine so also needs the FBs.
AndyB


Posted By: Oulton
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 19:31
Not yet fine tuned the finbar so perhaps even more to come?


Posted By: Cylvabirch
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2016 at 11:35
I have an earlier V7 Classic (2011 registration) that has twin throttle bodies. I spoke to Dave Shaw and fitted a Finebau Aeroplus Lite which simply connects between the temperature sensor on the airbox and the ECU. There is no plug into the Lamda circuit.
After a great deal of fiddling to find the "Goldilocks" setting of the dipswitches over many weeks, I have reluctantly disconnected the unit. The bike seems happier without it, and I wonder if somehow the Finebau and ECU were fighting each other.
Just prior to fitting the Finebau I had the TPS reset and latest map updated by Corsa Italiana followed by an extremely careful setting of throttle balance and by-pass flows chez Baldrick using his super-accurate vacuum gauges. As I had the Finebau unit already on order I put it on the bike, but I now think that it was unnecessary.
If someone else with my set-up could advise on how their Finebau dipswitches are set I would be glad to know as from so many positive posts, it seems just to be me that is having problems.


Posted By: happsy
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2016 at 20:26
I have a 2015 V7II with Mistral loudeners on it and have no problems with anything other than I don't get enough time to ride it...

-------------
happsy, Moto Guzzi V7II Special.
              Solex 3800 x 2


Posted By: tonewuk
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2017 at 18:30
Originally posted by sonicboom sonicboom wrote:

So do we have any other people that have used this product?

Had one on the Bella for 3 years much better running.
Just took it off ,Because i have upped the fuel pressure so its no longer running lean


Posted By: Leofric
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 20:46
just started riding 2015 V7.2 and also find engine is likely to stall after just setting off unless you rev up - but surely moto guzzi dealers should be able to get engines to run smoothly without owners having to fit some aftermarket gadget which would probably invalidate the manufacturer's warranty as well as costing more money!


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 22:38
Lots of bikes are like this, not just MG. It's cos they're set for stupidly low emissions and not actual real life. Only other option is a remap of the ECU.




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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Leofric
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 15:05
what remap do you have to have done to cure the problem? - and what if the dealer says the latest remap was done?
my 2015 V7 2 special is still under moto guzzi warranty but I was considering getting a Finebau 8 jet (or whatever they are called)part to try and get smoother running at all rpm.
regards


Posted By: Squarepants
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 22:35
Just a general comment...

3 x EFi Guzzis in our household. 2007 Breva 750, 2010 Griso 8V SE and 2014 Stelvio 8V. All run well on standard (updated) mapping without recourse to the Finebau units or similar. 

What am I missing?

Jon


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Smiling while it stays reliable...


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 01 May 2017 at 18:58
Some people don't seem to have a problem. I don't know why.


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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Cusi
Date Posted: 01 May 2017 at 20:11
Just had the first service on my V7 Racer 2.  Map has been updated and it has helped to reduce the tendancy to stall when first starting off.  According to blurb map was created 3/7/15 mapping 4533v795


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Never sacrifice position for safety


Posted By: Thorn
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2017 at 20:30
I've just fitted a finebau. Is it something I should advise my insurers of?


Posted By: jef
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 15:39
I bought a new V7ii in November last year.  I find the fuelling irritating too.

On start up, opening the throttle will cause it to stall.  For a few minutes after start up, all is very delicate if one is hoping for a rapid departure.

Once warmed up, there is no problem moving off, but the fuelling is not smooth below about 2,500 to 3,000 rpm.  It will not pull smoothly and seems to hunt, backwards and forwards, as if there is drive train snatch.  It makes riding in town unpleasant, when there is so much else to worry about.

My little Suzuki VanVan (RV125) is a dream when it comes to FI fuelling.

Above 3,000 it goes very nicely.  Quicker and slicker than my previous 08 Reg V7, I would say.

It is averaging just over 60 mpg, which is marginally better than the previous V7.  On a trip the other day, it did a shade under 70 mpg.  So no complaints on petrol consumption.

But start up and low rev running is a pain.  I agree, why should it be necessary to have to spend money on fixing something that should not need fixing.    


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 16:02
"I agree, why should it be necessary to have to spend money on fixing something that should not need fixing."

The same question applies to the quality of many motorcycle parts such as the rear suspension units and in some instances the seat design and materials. The problem is that unlike car manufacturers bike manufacturers assume that their products will be purchaced by the sort of people that like to "tinker and customise", and so it's more cost effective to fit cheaper components then sell you better made ones!


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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour


Posted By: Thorn
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 18:16
The Finebau has made a noticeable difference, but the V7 is still not as pleasant in traffic as the R9t Pure I tried a few weeks ago. The heavy clutch adds to the problems. I believe that the V7lll has a lighter clutch,. Does it still run lumpily?


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 19:43
Originally posted by Thorn Thorn wrote:

The Finebau has made a noticeable difference, but the V7 is still not as pleasant in traffic as the R9t Pure I tried a few weeks ago. The heavy clutch adds to the problems. I believe that the V7lll has a lighter clutch,. Does it still run lumpily?

My v7ii which I bought new in May 2015 has all the problems referred to above. I have not fitted the Finbau unit as I was reluctant to do this during the 2 year warranty period. It is standard and has apparently received 2 software updates during the services...not made a blind bit of difference. Clutch on mine does not seem particularly heavy. However the mkiii that I recently tested (did a brief review somewhere on this forum) exhibited none of these issues and the clutch is definitely lighter. I will still be keeping the mkii though because otherwise, I prefer it. Still might try the finbau unit though.


Posted By: jef
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 21:03
BobV7 has a point, though it could be said that seats, suspension and the like are more subjective.  It will very much depend on the type of body that the designers were working to as to whether any or all of these things matter to a particular buyer.

That said, there is nothing subjective about dodgy fuelling.  It is part of the basic engineering of the engine, something I am told that Italians are proud of. 


Posted By: oldlegs
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 21:41
V7chris, I took my finebau off my v711 you can try that if you want, they only take about 20mins tofit. Steve.

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Current: Beta Motard M4. Beta Motard tourer. Beta Super Motard. Beta Alp. Moto Guzzi V7 11 Stone.


Posted By: BobV7
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 22:02
Jef....my comment on quality is based on constant complaints on this forum from Guzzi owners regarding the need to change these components, plus of course my own experience of the same.

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V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 22:32
Originally posted by oldlegs oldlegs wrote:

V7chris, I took my finebau off my v711 you can try that if you want, they only take about 20mins tofit. Steve.

That's very kind Steve. I would like to take you up on that offer if I may. I will pm you. I am curious why you took it off though, did you find it to be unsuccessful?


Posted By: Leofric
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2017 at 00:25
I lost patience with my v7.2 special and exchanged it for a Honda CBF1000FA which so far seems to do everything well as you would expect a modern bike to do without the expense of modifications. No doubt the mpg will not be as good as the moto guzzi but I couldn't afford to sort out the 'riding over a cobbled street' suspension. Riding below 3000rpm not good either . Clutch was fine, cornering, running above 3000rpm, acceleration, shaft drive, controls, general handling and lightweight all good - MG comfort gel seat not that comfortable.
Basically I liked the bike apart from the flaws mentioned - a pity.


Posted By: oldlegs
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2017 at 22:04
Originally posted by V7Chris V7Chris wrote:

Originally posted by oldlegs oldlegs wrote:

V7chris, I took my finebau off my v711 you can try that if you want, they only take about 20mins tofit. Steve.

That's very kind Steve. I would like to take you up on that offer if I may. I will pm you. I am curious why you took it off though, did you find it to be unsuccessful?
From brand new my V711 had the small throttle low rev hesitation and after the 1st service was no better so I bought the Finebau and it was a worth while improvement. Then about 18 months any 12,000 miles later out of the blue after a short stop when restarted the engine did not respond to the throttle position for a few minutes, it did this a few times over the next couple of weeks. I removed the Finebau as a process of elimination and it made no difference whatsoever, the same problems continued. Then after reading posts on different forums it was suggested to disconnect the cables from the lambda sensors which I did and touch wood the bike has been ok since. I was told the V711 would get better and better for the 1st 10,000 miles and it has so never bothered to refit the Finebau.Steve.

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Current: Beta Motard M4. Beta Motard tourer. Beta Super Motard. Beta Alp. Moto Guzzi V7 11 Stone.


Posted By: Andyb
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2017 at 15:34
I have done the same change as Steve.......removed the lambdas, put stainless plugs in the holes in the exhaust and 3500 miles later no problems.   Just a smooth running engine. Only other engine change is Mistrals with the db killers fitted.
Andyb


Posted By: oldlegs
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 21:05
Andyb, I think it was you suggested uncouple the lambda's, thanks, can you tell me what size plugs I need or where to get them from Steve.

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Current: Beta Motard M4. Beta Motard tourer. Beta Super Motard. Beta Alp. Moto Guzzi V7 11 Stone.


Posted By: Andyb
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 08:42
Hi Steve,
Always nice to have a cheap, reverse-able solution to a problem! Someone else told me about removing the lambdas so I don't know who tried it first.
I got the stainless bungs from ebay, they are M18 x 1.5 thread with a copper washer.
Cheers
Andyb


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 10:11
I had a Triumph Tiger 955i for some years and it had a similar system with the O2 sensors. If you just disconnected these it upset the mixture. O2 eliminators are available which give a fake signal back to the ECU so taking the actual sensor out of the loop. In fact all these are is a resistor (I believe 330 ohms).

The real answer with the Tiger was to remap the ECU using TuneEdit free software so that it ignored the O2 sensor altogether although I have no knowledge of the Guzzi system.


-------------
Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: Andyb
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 12:33
Removing the lamdas does seem too easy a fix, but on these bikes (1TB V7 with Mistrals) it does seem to work.

My understanding is that the lambdas make the ECU operate closed circuit and weaken the mixture below 4000 rpm in order to make the engines comply with Euro emissions. As a result the engines are snatchy in this rev range. Above 4000rpm the ECU operates open circuit so whether the lamdas are there are not is irrelevant. So removing the lambdas makes the ECU run open circuit below 4000rpm, and richens the mixture but does not change things at faster engine speeds.

It is almost like Guzzi designed the engine to run open circuit throughout the rev range but then had to add lambdas to get through the Euro emissions regulations - but this is totally a guess. All I know is that removing the lambdas transformed my bike. I would have sold it if I could not have got rid of the low rpm snatchyness.

Engines like the Triumph 955 are different beasts and a lot of ECU tuning is done to improve power higher up the rev range, so I am sure that you are right if you say that removing the lamdas does not work on them. I always kept my 955 engined Sprints standard.

AndyB




Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 14:58
Yes, as I say I am completely ignorant about the Guzzi system. With the Triumph, it tried to correct the mixture where the target air/fuel was in a particular range (I can't remember what) which coincided with the 3-4000 rpm mark. That made it stumble and run erratically. What made mine absolutely smooth was to adjust the fuelling map so that it was in open loop (by making the target 12.5).

I never changed the maps at other rev ranges as I was very happy with the way it ran there.

Received wisdom with the Triumph was that merely removing the sensors without putting a resistor in upset the fuelling but I never tried that.


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Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: R100SRS
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 20:00
I recently changed a BMW R1100RS for a V7 cafe classic (mk 1). The BMW was fitted with an accelerator module, a plug in device which sends the ECU 20 degrees lower temperature than it actually is, in turn increasing the fuel by around 6%. It worked well, as to meet emissions controls the BMW, like many injection bikes ran pretty weak, so any increase in fuel could only help. (Much better with carbs - at least you an lift the needles to get more fuel).
I was expecting the V7 to be the same; but no - it runs very well even though it has a pair of Lafraconni silencers fitted. It’ starts well, runs and pulls well and compared to the BMW is a joy to ride. It can pop a little on the overrun, but that adds to the character of the bike.
My guess is that the problems that the Mk 2 & Mk 3 have, is related to the tighter emission standards that they have to meet Andy in doing so running leaner that is ideal.
I’m glad I went for the Mk 1........


Posted By: Adam
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2017 at 06:30
Yes same bike as mine, no problems.


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 06:12
Well the Finebau compensator I got from Oldlegs sorted mine out. No idea what electrickery is involved though, it may just be an empty box which has the effect of disconnecting the lambda sensors for all I know. Which brings me to my dumb question, why didn't you just unplug the lambda sensors and leave them in situ so that you don't then need blanking plugs?
Chris


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 16:02
Originally posted by oldlegs oldlegs wrote:

Originally posted by V7Chris V7Chris wrote:

Originally posted by oldlegs oldlegs wrote:

V7chris, I took my finebau off my v711 you can try that if you want, they only take about 20mins tofit. Steve.

That's very kind Steve. I would like to take you up on that offer if I may. I will pm you. I am curious why you took it off though, did you find it to be unsuccessful?
From brand new my V711 had the small throttle low rev hesitation and after the 1st service was no better so I bought the Finebau and it was a worth while improvement. Then about 18 months any 12,000 miles later out of the blue after a short stop when restarted the engine did not respond to the throttle position for a few minutes, it did this a few times over the next couple of weeks. I removed the Finebau as a process of elimination and it made no difference whatsoever, the same problems continued. Then after reading posts on different forums it was suggested to disconnect the cables from the lambda sensors which I did and touch wood the bike has been ok since. I was told the V711 would get better and better for the 1st 10,000 miles and it has so never bothered to refit the Finebau.Steve.


Steve, I seem to be experiencing a similar issue. As you know, I fitted your old Finebau unit and it certainly improved the low rev/part throttle. Went away to work overseas for a few weeks in November and got my neighbour to turn the bike over for me after a couple of weeks. Ever since then, it has an intermittent habit of failing to respond, sort of feels like fuel starvation but although I can't confirm, as though it is only firing on one cylinder. At idle it is fine and with no load it will respond to throttle input but sluggishly. Then after a minute or two fault dissapears and runs like a swiss watch. Does this sound familiar? Obviously I will strategy with disconnecting the Finebau to eliminate it. No other mods at all and 7k on the clock. Anyone else experienced this?
Chris


Posted By: oldlegs
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 16:39
Hi Chris, sorry to here you are having problems, I never got the feeling my bike was running on one cylinder, my bike suffered most after a short stop such as calling at a shop for a few minutes and then restarting it would sometimes not respond to the throttle position for a minute or two and then be ok, sometimes for a few days other times it would do it the very next time I had a short stop. Hope you get it sorted soon Steve.

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Current: Beta Motard M4. Beta Motard tourer. Beta Super Motard. Beta Alp. Moto Guzzi V7 11 Stone.


Posted By: motopete
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 20:17
Hi Chris, your symptoms are almost the opposite of what I'd expect... Here are my thoughts ~ brace yourself!

When you start the bike from cold it runs on a fixed fuelling map that's ever so slightly rich, whilst the lambda sensors heat up. Once the lambda sensors are hot they generate an output voltage which the ECU detects; the ECU then goes into closed loop mode and regulates the mixture based on feedback from the sensors, alternating weak/rich/weak.... etc

The crucial thing is "weak" means very weak, "rich" means just about rich enough to run smoothly. So on average the engine's running weak (hesitant and uneven) with brief periods at the end of each weak cycle where it's far too weak and won't respond to the throttle for a moment or two.

If you start your bike from cold and don't touch the throttle, you should find it initially ticks over quite smoothly (ECU open loop) then after a few seconds  or 10's seconds you'll notice it go lumpy - that's when the ECU switches into closed loop mode.

The Finebau device is trying to raise the voltage at which the lambda sensors indicate "weak" and get the ECU to start richening the mixture before it has a chance to get too weak. This sounds fine in principle but the lambda sensors have a very sharp characteristic between indicating rich/weak; in otherwords altering the voltage at which the ECU switches only has a small effect on the fuel mixture.

How do I know all this I hear you ask?  Well I've spent many hours with a 'scope on my bike after building a Finebau-type device. Oh yes, I know how to enjoy myself Wink
I also noticed when I took my bike in for its 1st service the diagnostic S/W displays something called "mixture correction". It started at 0% when the engine was started then after a few seconds started going negative, to around -2% or -3% I think. I assume this means weaker.

In practise with my Finebau-type experiment I found it was also necessary to delay the "rich" indication back to the ECU by a few 100's ms, but give immediate indication when the "weak" threshold was detected. The average mixture (AFR) is then slightly richer. Still not as good as well set-up carbs but that makes sense because in closed loop mode the mixture is oscillating rich/weak/rich..., hence the engine reacts accordingly.

The upshot of all this is fixing the problem once and for all probably requires so called wideband lambda sensors. These measure AFR over a much wider range, so a change in sampling voltage has a much larger effect on the mixture. You'd still need some electronics between the sensors and the ECU, the electronics determining the voltage at which you declare "weak" and "rich".
Only thing to be aware of is emissions control, but to my mind making the mixture just rich enough for the engine to run smoothly should give acceptable emissions.

IMHO the standard set-up can be downright dangerous if you're not used to it, for example opening the throttle and nothing happens for a second or 2... your concentration turns to engine management instead of the road Shocked

I hope this rambling reply makes sense. This and the overly harsh suspension are the only 2 things that spoil this otherwise perfect bike for me.  I still enjoy riding it though Smile



Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 20:43
Actually the Lambda sensor gives a high voltage for a rich mixture and a low one for a weak mixture. The modifying gizmos like the Finebau and Fat Duc reduce this voltage slightly to make the ECU think the mixture is too weak, and it richens the mixture accordingly. 
oxygen sensor switching voltage
 
You can get a similar result with a straightforward resistor bridge, or indeed just a schottky diode in series with the sensor output. The latter has been proved to work on earlier V7s, but don't know about the later ones. I tried it on my Norge, but it sometimes brought up the Service light, reporting a lambda sensor fault.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 20:48
You could just disconnect the lambda sensor and try it like that. The small block still seems to work and runs on the base map, which is often better than closed loop. It would also highlight a fault with the lambda sensor.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: motopete
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2018 at 19:12
That’s right Brian, a Zirconia lambda sensor produces an output voltage when the mixture is around the stoichiometric point.
ECU's typically decide weak/rich at around +0.4V. In my experiments I shifted this threshold to +0.8V, which is the same as attenuating the sensor output by half using resistors. On my engine I found the shift to +0.8V made a small difference, but definitely still too weak.
 
Whilst the resistor technique or indeed a schottky diode is attractive due to its simplicity, it has 2 disadvantages:
 
1) It’s only possible to shift the lambda sampling threshold, therefore only a small shift in AFR is possible using a 'standard' narrow band Zirconia sensor. 
 
2) The resistors must be high value (100’s kohm minimum) to avoid loading the lambda sensor. The sensor is a very weak voltage generator, and unless the resistors are connected very close to the ECU there’s a strong chance of noise pick-up on the ECU signal, thereby confusing the ECU (false “rich” indications).
 
  
Exclamation something to be aware ofit's easy to "over adjust" a resistor based gadget such that the sensor's unable to generate a voltage high enough to reach the ECU sampling threshold. In this case the bike will probably appear to run well and you’ll be well chuffed, but the reason it’s running well is because the ECU isn't receiving any feedback so it defaults to open loop mode.

Lamp The same effect can be achieved by simply unplugging the lambda sensors... Which begs the question, why not just unplug the lambda sensors and run the default map?
I suspect the default map is safe  because that’s how the ECU would operate if a lambda sensor fails…
 

BTW, if you have access to a digital voltmeter (basic ones are pretty cheap nowadays) it’s fairly easy to check whether the engine’s running closed loop or open loop . Tap into the lambda signal and watch it switch from around +0.1V (weak) to +0.9V (rich). The switching rate might be too fast for your meter to keep up with, but over a few seconds you’ll see the signal in both states (low and high). The fact it's changing state means the ECU's running closed loop.
If the engine’s running open loop the lambda voltage will be stuck high, around +0.9 to +1.0V, because the default map is slightly rich.

End of waffle Beer
 PS. With a threshold of +0.85V and about 300ms delay I find my engine is quite happy, with a nice pale grey dusting on the plugs.



Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 18:00
Thanks for the comments guys. I can't pretend to understand all this electronickery, I am strictly a spanner man. Ultimately, how the Finebau unit works is of less concern than the source of the failure to respond to throttle input as it ran fine when I initially installed it. I shall hopefully get a chance to disconnect it this weekend and see if that makes a difference.


Posted By: motopete
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 18:32
Just a thought Chris, but are your plugs/plug caps OK? I'm sure I've heard the standard plug caps can go dicky - although I've had no problems with mine (11k miles)*

* Until next time I come to start it no doubt.

But as you say, the easiest way to eliminate the Finebau is to disconnect it.
Try running without the lambdas connected initially, it should run fine because it won't go into silly-weak closed loop mode.

Then stop and connect the lambdas. You should be back to original behaviour (i.e. tempermental throttle response at low revs/low throttle opening until it's thoroughly warm).

I'll be interested to hear how you get on...
Pete.


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 23:17
Thanks Pete, will do and if the elimination of the Finebau unit doesn't work, I will look at the plug caps.


Posted By: Jonny Boy
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 17:09
Speaking of spark plug caps, the dealer replaced mine under warranty due to what they said was a recall from MG.
I didn't receive any notification myself from Guzzi, just a call from the dealer who collected, fixed and returned the bike. That was late 2015 on a V7II bought that August.


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 17:25
Hi Jonny
My v7ii was bought May 2015. I don't know if they did this at the first service but nothing was mentioned. Interesting though. Which dealer out of interest?


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 21:14
I doubt Guzzi would replace spark plug caps as a recall. Recalls are only for safety items.

-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 17:29
Well, finally got around to disconnecting the Finebau unit. Gave it a 15 mile run and pretty much back to standard v7ii behaviour (poor part throttle/ low rev running etc.) But a strange episode at one point where the poor response to throttle input/ misfire occurred once. So if it doesn't settle down after a longer run, I shall change the plugs and caps and see how I get on as MotoPete suggested.


Posted By: rapheal
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 21:41
I fitted one to my breva, after a long European tour where i got fed up with the popping and banging on the over run
what a difference
downhill no popping and banging
pulling away, the engine spools up much quicker with more power
and no more juddering below 3k when riding in traffic
worth every penny, I was considering getting rid of the bike and going back to an old BMW for the better low speed riding ( but not handling)


Posted By: motopete
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 20:02
The Breva 750's I've come across seem to run quite smoothly compared to the later V7's, so I imagine a little tweak to the fueling will make it nigh on perfect.

I'm pretty sure the V7 II runs leaner than the Breva, so it's more difficult to coax the fuelling back to anything approaching sensible.
What the V7 II really needs is the V7 III engine!



Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2018 at 17:21
Originally posted by motopete motopete wrote:

T<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">he Breva 750's I've come across seem to run quite smoothly compared to the later V7's, so I imagine a little tweak to the fueling will make it nigh on perfect.</span>

I'm pretty sure the V7 II runs leaner than the Breva, so it's more difficult to coax the fuelling back to anything approaching sensible.
What the V7 II really needs is the V7 III engine!


Or even the V9 engine perhaps? Went for a couple of runs in the last few days and very irritatingly, it is fine 95% of the time. Intermittent stutter/missfire /failure to respond to throttle input. Recommendation for plug caps - NGK perhaps? Can't remember the last time I bought some but must be 10 years +


Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 07:54
Having fettled the Enfield EFI-500 with Power Commander and Autotune (wide-band O2) to produce a ton-up machine (only just, and one of very few such), some lessons learnt -
One needs a very good understanding of spread sheets and numeric analysis to program the Power Commander, the dynamometer is not the whole story. One needs to visualise what the numbers in the map and trim tables are showing.
One can get a moderate increase in peak bhp but and a substantial increase in torque lower down, wider power band.
One can eliminate decel popping by tweaking the map, essentially by cutting the fuel off during deceleration zero throttle.  
One can get a smoother throttle response by tailoring the injector to the throttle opening (TPS).
One can alter the ignition timing, this probably needs to be done to improve performance. 

Euro4 models seem to have quite different mapping to earlier ones. they seem to be less fussy about changing the silencer but more fussy about fitting a K&N, and disconnecting the Lambda for a 'dongle' resistor. My Enfield is an earlier type. 
The newer oem maps seem to be getting better at eliminating the idle pickup snatch and hesitancy. That said my V7.ii is stock and doesn't seem to suffer from this problem, it pulls away smoothly and spins up quick, no decel popping, otoh the Enfield was a complete pig and needed fixing. Having one bike that can rival the 1812 Overture, I have no desire for louder pipes on the Guzzi.

I discovered that most OEM ECU maps are developed in Italy.  

The V7.ii is slightly cheaper to insure than the "modified" Enfield, as soon as you change a silencer the bike is "modified" and the premium shoots up.  


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 10:38
Interesting and useful, thanks.

In the real world it's the amount of torque available which matters, peak power makes little difference.

All the Guzzi ECUs are Magnetti-Marelli, so yes, Italian.

The bit I find confusing is the variation in owner's experiences with their bikes. Some are happy with the way they perform, some say the same model (not the same bike) is almost unridable.
Is there a real variation in the bikes, or is there a variation in owners perception?


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 20:32
Definitely not perception Brian, disconnecting the lambdas transformed the ride.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 21:43
So there must be differences from one bike to another. Or some don't notice which I find hard to believe.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 22:56
Don't just disconnect the Lambda, put a resistor in its place.  I don't know the ohm value, it came as a plug from Dynojet.

The basic Dynojet Power Commander set up eliminates the Lambda narrow-band O2 sensors and substitutes a resistor "dongle" in the connector to the ECU, as mentioned by Motopete before.

The Autotune AT-200 introduces Bosch wide-band O2 sensors that operate in real-time. It piggybacks onto the Power Commander, and it also datalogs the trim.

Comparing notes with other Power Commanders - yes, every bike is different

Both are expensive options. I do not intend to fit these to the V7.ii
1) modifying the bike sends the insurance premium way up.
2) imo it has enough power in stock form, if I wanted a faster bike I'd get a bigger one.
3) I've scratched that itch.
4) it's an expensive hobby. I can spanner a bike but prefer riding it.


Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 11:01
Having re-read the entire thread - I think the 'dongle' provided by Dynojet is probably a little resistor divider network providing that +0.85V described earlier by Motopete.

And having said my V7.ii runs fine, of course it has now decided it likes to dot out when I lift the throttle until it is warmed up, and stall easily, which is embarrassing leaving the car park.
Once it has warmed up, no problem although slow running (heavy traffic) is less than smooth.

What has changed?
Plugs cleaned and reset from 0.90 to 0.70mm
Valve clearance checked and reset to 0.15 and 0.20mm from a little wider (0.16?) on the inlet and about 0.28mm on the exhaust.
Throttle cables adjusted, they were very sloppy ~5mm play.

What have I done since?
Resetting plugs to 0.80-0.85 has made no difference (logic being that the CPR8ES-9 plug is made by NGK preset to 0.90mm, I think they were fitted like that)

Where are the Lambda connector boxes?


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 14:49
The fat Duc is another "dongle" working on a resistive network which modifies the output of the lambda sensor to make the ECU think it's running lean and thus richens up the mixture.
A shottky diode in series with the lambda sensor output can also work. They cost pence.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: oldlegs
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 22:18
If I remember right the lambda connectors are behind the side cover. Steve

-------------
Current: Beta Motard M4. Beta Motard tourer. Beta Super Motard. Beta Alp. Moto Guzzi V7 11 Stone.


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 07:54
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

A shottky diode in series with the lambda sensor output can also work. They cost pence.
All very well Brian, simple muckaniks like me need to have such things explained in simple terms, e.g.where do I hit it, how hard, do I move my thumb out of the way first, what colour is it etc. With the lambdas sensors, I just left the multiplugs disconnected behind the side panels , protected the exposed end of the plugs and it seems to work fine. Should I be fitting one of these fandangos you mention? If so, where do I get one, what do I connect it to (I can weld after a fashion!), Do I need one for each side, and finally, can you pop round next Tuesday at about 10:30 and put in for me. ThanksBig smile


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 09:40
LOL




-------------
"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 10:05
Generally when you hit things, especially with the large hammer, it does pay to get one's finger out of the way. Same applies to axes as some will know.

If you had just one lambda sensor then I can send you one made up to fit. I only have one as I made it up to try on the Norge, but it brought up the service light. I gather the V7 range is a little more forgiving.




-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2018 at 14:46
Having written the V7.ii idled well it, of course, decided to die when lifting the throttle when cold and stuttering in slow corners.
So I changed the plugs. The old ones looked good and have only done 5000 miles at most but the new plugs got rid of most of the stuttering. It still needs warming up but doesn't dot out so readily.
New CPR8EB-9 fitted straight out of the box at 0.90mm, stock MG rubber plug caps.


Posted By: deltic
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2018 at 17:35
moto guzzi rubber caps are a weak point


Posted By: TimmyTheHog
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2018 at 23:47
Originally posted by deltic deltic wrote:

moto guzzi rubber caps are a weak point

my original cap died on me and caused arcing

I upgraded to XD05F with CPR8EA-9

A lot more solid connection and none to minor wiggles within the head.


Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 17:08
Originally posted by TimmyTheHog TimmyTheHog wrote:

Originally posted by deltic deltic wrote:

moto guzzi rubber caps are a weak point

my original cap died on me and caused arcing

I upgraded to XD05F with CPR8EA-9

A lot more solid connection and none to minor wiggles within the head.


The red ones are faster than the black ones? Big smile


Posted By: TimmyTheHog
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 17:18
Originally posted by jefrs jefrs wrote:

Originally posted by TimmyTheHog TimmyTheHog wrote:

Originally posted by deltic deltic wrote:

moto guzzi rubber caps are a weak point

my original cap died on me and caused arcing

I upgraded to XD05F with CPR8EA-9

A lot more solid connection and none to minor wiggles within the head.


The red ones are faster than the black ones? Big smile

Definitely!...in my head anyway :P

at least it looks faster :P My bike is red too....so Beer


Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 01:42
Bit odd.

I reconnected the Lambdas and cleared the tables again. This worked well, perhaps it had learnt bad habits.

Then I drained the oil out of the air filter box and it worked even better. (I did not put the oil in, recent dealer service).


My bike is an impetuous red but the plug caps are rubbery, and hidden from view Wink


Posted By: motopete
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 17:20
Out of interest, when you say "cleared the tables" what exactly did you do?

AFAIK the ECU doesn't learn, it just reads sensor inputs (engine speed, TPS, intake air temp, cylinder temp, exhaust lambda) to trim the mixture from the base map values.

I assume the base map isn't too far off ideal since some people run with the lambda's disconnected.



Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 20:29
The ECU does learn in a primitive manner. There are two 10x10 look-up tables from the Lambdas, one for hot the other cold, it applies these to the base map. Disconnecting the battery or the main fuse powers down the system and clears the tables. 
This was suggested on here but is a fairly common trick with car ECU which can also get their shorts in a bunch, for example refuses to idle because it thinks its TPS is at full throttle (afaik the Guzzi ECU only stores data from the Lambdas). What can happen is false data or 'outliers' get stored which offset what it should be doing. The data are cumulative, the system keeps adding to them; the data set can get skewed. It effectively resets the system.  

There should be, because there usually is, some method of resetting or recalibrating the TPS. I don't know what it is on this bike, it varies from one vehicle to the next. Resets the 0% to 100% throttle position, which affects idle. On the other bike it's something like open throttle 100%, switch on and wait for lights to blink then close throttle and wait for another blink then switch off and wait 30 seconds; car is similar too. It's not normally in the manual.


I did disconnect the Lambdas but figured they're supposed to be connected; I get better results using a wide-band O2 on the other bike than without - but with a Power Commander custom map. 

I seem to be getting, and this is subjective, better result with the Lambdas connected but with the tables cleared. But note I have also mopped out oil from the air box, which should not have been in there, and probably contributed to any problem.



Posted By: jefrs
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2018 at 11:16
I should also perhaps say I am not getting decel popping and I am not getting the flat spot on pick-up from idle, both of which are something of a feature of electronic fuel injection.  I do have stock exhaust and silencers.

From some experience with the other bike, it is possible to get better response and fuelling with injectors than with a carburettor. A carb will often give smoother throttle response making it nicer to ride but modern bikes unfortunately have their mapping set to pass emission regulations; but is it possible to dial that out. There are several methods but perhaps the most common is to adjust the map especially at the bottom end.

Which is all a lot of these box of tricks do.

Which is what a Dynojet Power Commander will do in spades but also enable tuning the entire map and ignition, but I am not sure a Power Commander will work on a V7ii, probably not from what I've read. Dynojet do not list a fitment for V7ii
Note (NB) A Power Commander can send your insurance premiums right up, maybe double; not always a good option. And they won't produce highly significant performance improvement, mainly they'll provide a more responsive throttle.



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