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Teslas killing motorcyclists.

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URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=14781
Printed Date: 27 Jan 2023 at 14:15
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Topic: Teslas killing motorcyclists.
Posted By: jmee54
Subject: Teslas killing motorcyclists.
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2022 at 17:33
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRdzIs4FJJg" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRdzIs4FJJg



Replies:
Posted By: Guzzi1000SE
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 00:15
Interesting video and conclusions. 

    


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 08:56
Originally posted by Guzzi1000SE Guzzi1000SE wrote:

Interesting video and conclusions. 

    
worth watching Thumbs Up

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1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider


Posted By: Guzzished
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 08:58
I'll be watching my mirrors.


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 09:12
Meanwhile Toyota has developed a Hydrogen "Cartridge" system making hydrogen easier to use as a fuel. It can be used to produce electricity or used to "Burn" in a combustion engine there was an interesting article in "More Bikes" online 

Honda developed a Hydrogen powered bike in 2004 Loughborough Uni has had one they use on campus since before that. 


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The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 09:24
Rather worrying !

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TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 18:10
IMHO the EU will ban them eventually . The limitations of machine vision only has driven the European manufacturers to use radar or lidar in addition , the EU will let them write the legislation. They already have the first move with the German ban on the term "auto pilot". EU legislation always requires an automated reversion to a back up system. Legislation for AEB will mean radar will be there anyway and a freebie to the advanced cruise function designers. 

Face it though, I've driven at night and seen bikes with twin lights as cars in the distance at first look. The human brain is just quicker to make stuff up or in this case correct itself when other factors become apparent. I'm surprised the Fortnite bloke is so limited in items riders of such machines can do to improve their chances. Fit a third light to break "Father Dougal" look. Wear hi-viz to look like a bicycle.

Andy 


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 18:29
Way back in the sixties, I think, Royal Enfield stopped fitting twin pilot lamps to their headlamp nacelles because if ridden only on side lights a bike would look like a car in the distance. The Indian Bullets retained the said pilot lights.

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TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 18:34
That was AJS/MAtchless, two little side lights alonside the headlight.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 18:36
So it was, but Royal Enfield did it too, I've got one. https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/royal-enfield/bullet/1955/796915" rel="nofollow - https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/royal-enfield/bullet/1955/796915

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TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2022 at 20:56
We’ve all misinterpreted something we’ve seen, and, in most cases, got away with it because we’ve realised, and acted accordingly.  If our Canadian correspondent is right, then Musk is making a commercial decision without considering the implications: he’s smart, and he’s arrogant, but he’s not perfect, and it’ll bite him, eventually.

I understood from another forum that the Tesla hands back control to the driver (potentially with insufficient time to take avoiding action) so that they can claim that the autopilot “never had an accident” because it wasn’t driving when the accident happened.  




Posted By: Guzzished
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2022 at 00:35
I heard, one second, that's nuts if correct.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2022 at 07:51
But it gets Tesla out of liability, which is all that matters - to them.



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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2022 at 17:02
Handing back control is a logical requirement.

A challenge: You have to write a logic statement that does otherwise.

The current logic states that under any circumstances where the AI cannot work out a positive solution it has to hand back control and give the driver a very loud warning. This means if a sensor fails it hands back control. If it meets a cloud of dust behind a hay trailer that looks superficially solid, it hands back control. Logically then, once a collision is a certainty it will hand back control.

Your challenge has to write the logic that sees a light show projected onto a cloud or a car shaped cloud, or a car on an advertising hording as something you don't slam on the brakes for and yet keep trying after a collision is inevitable when the only thing visible is a seemingly huge bumper. 

It makes no difference legally, the driver using the system remains responsible just as it he had put a brick on the pedal. 

This is a cost saving measure for certain . Automotive companies work on razor thin margins on new vehicle sales and Tesla is already on very thin financial ice. They need to keep pushing the technology because they don't have a basic, cheap and cheerful product to fall back on while the likes of Ford and VW do. 

Andy 


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2022 at 21:23
We are not arguing about the handing back of control, merely commenting on the timing. 
Average reaction time is best part of half a second, so you actually get the other half second to do something useful.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Guzzi1000SE
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2022 at 23:04

Even though I have a deep (in my mind healthy) distrust of AI, it’s not always the fault of machines.   

 

I was shown a video clip today by a biker friend who knows the young man in the footage, which was recorded by the bus in broad daylight.  The bus is stationary and you see the young man riding a small motorbike with L plates passing the bus, the same as anyone of us would do.  Suddenly a red car passes the bus going quite a bit faster and rear ends the bike, knocking the rider of the bike off.  Luckily unlike me, he is only 18 and he bounces and gets straight back up. Ouch    

 

He rings the police who refuse to come out, as no one is seriously injured.  They swap insurance details and leave the incident.  When his insurance company contacts the car driver's insurance company they inform them, they recently stopped insuring the car driver, no reason why given. Wacko 



Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 06:55
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

, merely commenting on the timing. 
Average reaction time is best part of half a second, so you actually get the other half second to do something useful.

The journalist has not understood the function. There is no timer. 

When the AI reaches the conclusion it cannot solve the problem it hands back control. This could be days or fractions of a second. If you can draw a flow chart of how it always hands back control in time for the driver to save the likely impossible, yet still functions usefully you can be rich. Mostly the control loop reaches a better conclusion than the human, the failure is technical and the driver gets back control with days to spare or nothing can prevent the collision and it is academic that the function was ended by the airbag deployment.

Tesla lawyers might like the fact that technically it wasn't driving at the terminal point, but I really doubt that will survive a test in UK court. Warning lights that currently come on just before engines sieze don't save manufacturers who make dodgy oil pipes etc. that defence only works if the driver ignored it for days. 

Andy 


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 08:07
What is the point of handing back control a fraction of a second before catastrophe, apart from the obvious one of avoiding liability?

But the bigger problem is items which remain invisible to the autonomous vehicle.



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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 08:09
Originally posted by Guzzi1000SE Guzzi1000SE wrote:

He rings the police who refuse to come out, as no one is seriously injured.  They swap insurance details and leave the incident.  When his insurance company contacts the car driver's insurance company they inform them, they recently stopped insuring the car driver, no reason why given. Wacko 


At which point I hope he contacted the police again to report an uninsured driver.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Guzzi1000SE
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 17:43
[/QUOTE]
At which point I hope he contacted the police again to report an uninsured driver.
[/QUOTE]

He first rang the police at the accident site.  I recommend he rang the police again and reported the situation.  I was told he tried and got the same comments from the police and it is now in the hands of the insurance company.  

If it was me (once my old bones allowed me out of the hospital Ouch) or a member of my family, I would be down at the police station, demanding they did something and putting in a formal compliant.    


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 18:22
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

What is the point of handing back control a fraction of a second before catastrophe, apart from the obvious one of avoiding liability?


It doesn't do that, the time is a consequence not a programmed factor. 

It hands back control when there is no solution. When a vehicle travelling at 60 mph is ten feet from a concrete wall there is no solution, so control is handed back just like when lane markers are over painted or a huge wasp splatters a camera. No timers, just logic applied in the way machines always will, logic that serves the design purpose of dealing with much more likely events outside the designs capability. 

The solution is to extend the design capability by fitting radar. Radar confirms the Father Dougal dilemma: it isn't far away so must be very small. If the solution is identified early enough to brake, the AI never gives up and retains control. A basic ACC/AEB from ten years ago can do this using the radar Tesla removed. 

A human is getting the additional information needed from tiny clues like not needing to refocus our eyes when scanning from the two red dots of the far away car/close by bike to say a road sign that by it's size is close. Humans will make the same error if the road sign is not the standard size we expect. There is no reason a machine cannot do the same but it needs that logic to be qualified. This is the work Tesla have not done properly. There is probably no cost saving and a time penalty when getting rid of the LIDAR involves a huge software development. 

Andy 




Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2022 at 23:16
It's still just a "get out of jail" clause.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: red leader one
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2022 at 07:29
http://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=6a2bdfc8531da68eJmltdHM9MTY2MjUwODgwMCZpZ3VpZD0xZWI2MDczMi0zZmZiLTY5ZGEtMGYwOS0xNmZlM2VjMzY4YWImaW5zaWQ9NTE4OA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=1eb60732-3ffb-69da-0f09-16fe3ec368ab&u=a1L3ZpZGVvcy9zZWFyY2g_cGM9TU9aSSZxPWluc2FtaXR5K2NsYXVzZStNYXJ4K2Jyb3RoZXJzJnJ1PSUyZnNlYXJjaCUzZmZvcm0lM2RNT1pMQlIlMjZwYyUzZE1PWkklMjZxJTNkaW5zYW1pdHklMmJjbGF1c2UlMmJNYXJ4JTJiYnJvdGhlcnMmdmlldz1kZXRhaWwmbW1zY249dndyYyZtaWQ9RTEwMzczOURFNzhBNkYwN0M5MDhFMTAzNzM5REU3OEE2RjA3QzkwOCZGT1JNPVdSVk9SQw&ntb=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=6a2bdfc8531da68eJmltdHM9MTY2MjUwODgwMCZpZ3VpZD0xZWI2MDczMi0zZmZiLTY5ZGEtMGYwOS0xNmZlM2VjMzY4YWImaW5zaWQ9NTE4OA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=1eb60732-3ffb-69da-0f09-16fe3ec368ab&u=a1L3ZpZGVvcy9zZWFyY2g_cGM9TU9aSSZxPWluc2FtaXR5K2NsYXVzZStNYXJ4K2Jyb3RoZXJzJnJ1PSUyZnNlYXJjaCUzZmZvcm0lM2RNT1pMQlIlMjZwYyUzZE1PWkklMjZxJTNkaW5zYW1pdHklMmJjbGF1c2UlMmJNYXJ4JTJiYnJvdGhlcnMmdmlldz1kZXRhaWwmbW1zY249dndyYyZtaWQ9RTEwMzczOURFNzhBNkYwN0M5MDhFMTAzNzM5REU3OEE2RjA3QzkwOCZGT1JNPVdSVk9SQw&ntb=1

Does this help?



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