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Full face or Open?

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Printed Date: 06 Feb 2023 at 07:13
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Topic: Full face or Open?
Posted By: Ambermile
Subject: Full face or Open?
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 10:06
I know a full face is seen as better/safer/etc. but I have a 1985 V65 and it just seems wrong really to wear full face. I have a tidy little open face, goggles, mask and yes, even a white silk scarf... as well as the bright yellow full face. 

Does everyone go with the full retro look or what? Personally, the open face makes me look like a T:1000 (which may or may not be a good thing Wink )



Replies:
Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 11:43
I've tried full face helmets but find them impossibly claustrophobic. I did use similar to you for many miles but after several wet tours where everything fogged up, which combined with the elastic stretching made riding somewhat tricky I landed on a compromise - a Nitro open face with visor. This has served very well for 15 years or so now (obviously not the same one!)




-------------
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 12:24
Beautiful looking Brough Superior there
Thumbs Up

CHRIS


-------------
you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza



Posted By: Ambermile
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 12:52
Originally posted by c13pep c13pep wrote:

Beautiful looking Brough Superior there
Thumbs Up

CHRIS

Isn't it just - I'd even consider changing my name to Joe for that... Cool


And yes Tom, the helmet I have (it's a Vespa) has a removable visor but not pull down - you either have it or you don't. Like those that slide up inside but it doesn't slide up LOL  I do get fogging of the goggles regardless of the goggles/mask/scarf/combo I pick...


Posted By: Rushjob
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 13:06
Both! I've got a Scorpion Exotech Carbon, the flip goes right behind the head so you don't have the front acting like a sail when you ride with it up, plus it's homologated as both a full and open faced helmet.



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Insert witty signature below............


Posted By: AdrianW
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 14:34
Must admit I have not worn an open face since I was a teenager (a long time ago, it's all there was then) & that was a Stadium.. !!
Yes, full face ones do steam up sometimes and sneezing really is best avoided but on balance I prefer the protection..  The prospect of hitting the tarmac with no chin protection does not bear thinking about in my view - I prefer to avoid any dental work where at all possible...

I think the flip up type probably represent the best of all worlds and will be what I get next..

Cheers
Adrian
Bristol UK


Posted By: Stevex
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 15:04
Amongst others I've got a 1980 LM2, but I always ride it with a full face lid.
Quite apart from safety, I really can do without all those insects that end up on my visor, in my face!


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Steve
https://imgbb.com/" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Hustler
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 15:10
I was full face for many years but switched a few years back to open face with a visor.
  
I find the vision so much better and because of that I'm sticking with it. 


Posted By: motomike1400
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 15:23
On two occasions  a full face lid has probably saved me from serious injury, maybe even death. Both times the chin bar took a huge hit, sufficient to crack and gouge the bar. Doubt my jaw would have taken kindly to it.
However, I do own an open lid, used for the Distinguished Gentleman's Ride.
And a flip front too.
But generally,  I use one of my full face Arai or Bell lids.


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V7 Classic. 1800 Touring Goldwing. Honda Africa Twin 1000. Kawa Z900RS Cafe. SWM300RS. Folding moped thingy.
Though these may change🤔
Now thinking less is more🤔


Posted By: George S
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 15:27
Full face with pinlock visor purchased this year. This anti misting device works well. Safety and you can see where you are going. 

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George

1994 Nevada
1962 Lightweight ducati Bevel Single
Son's 1990 1000S to borrow any time


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 16:06
Originally posted by AdrianW AdrianW wrote:

I think the flip up type probably represent the best of all worlds and will be what I get next..


They do tend to be more noisy.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Ambermile
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 16:08
Hmm. Beginning to look like it's flip up/full face all the way unless on a poodle ride... pretty much how I see it TBH, I like the visibility with open face but always at the back of my mind is that what-if.  Was different on mopeds in the 70's - flat out kissing the tank and feet on the seat got me to 50 tops... now 1st gear does it. 


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 17:31
My main considerations are misting then noise.

I wore open face for years because they don't mist, still do when pottering about on the CL350. I finally found HJC full face that are way quieter and with built in pin-lock don't mist.

I had a Shuberth flip front. Hideously heavy and noiser than an open face. Pretty much the worst of everything for me.

Use the SHARP site to check the noise and safety ratings. These prove that price is not an indication of anything except fashionable graphics. You can get five stars for £120 or three for a grand.

Andy


Posted By: borderer
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 19:06
I used to go trail riding with an open face as a conventional full face was too hot, about a month after buying an off road type helmet. I made contact with a large rock which split the chinbar. 
Still use an open face for slow pootling about rides but full face for anything else


Posted By: Softley
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 19:51
I star
ted riding 40 odd years ago in an open Face helmet. Then progressed to full face. Then to flip front. Now I use a Davida open Face for most rides and if it looks wet I use a carbon fibre Caberg. But if I had to chose one or the other it would be the Davida every time. Fyi statistically you are less likely to have an off with an open Face. Probably be wise you feel. Ore vulnerable  and take more care. 


Posted By: Jim Mac
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 21:26
Caberg flip up.  I only pull it down in the rain, like all day today, spoiled my run

-------------
Norge 1200 GT 8v   T5 Polizia   BMW R45
Too old to die young


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 00:05
I recently had an interesting discussion with a lady at a bike accessory shop in Bletchley.  She had been a helmet race tech for Shoei, and dealt with the £120 quite top-of-the-sharp ratings very simply.  She told me that the cheap-as-chips helmets all put a very specific hard point reinforcement exactly where the sharp test is carried out, so, as you’d expect, they pass the test with flying colours, but her view us that the test is bullsh*t, and in a real world impact, unless you’re lucky enough to bang your helmet exactly on the reinforced area, you might as well spend your money on new shoes for all the good a cheap helmet will do you.

Now,that leaves the punter with a dilemma.  Either the expensive helmets are a rip off, or the cheap helmets are untrustworthy.  I have no intention of using the only head I have to find out which is which, and £500 quid for a five year investment is two quid a week, which seems like a sound deal to me.

I’ve bought Shoei helmets for more than twenty years, and whilst I might try something else next time, it won’t be a cheapo.  (And I never pay the extra for the graphics, plain, clear colour, either red to match the bike, or white in the hope that the archetypical dozy git will mistake me for a copper and think better of pulling out in front of me). 

You pays yer money and you takes yer pick.

Ride safe
Simon


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 07:54
This debate is endless I look for how heavy a lid is as that is what put's a strain on the neck & shoulders. The basic Arai/Shoei Full face ones are good for that and with pinlock work well However my favourite lid is my Davida open face 

It is lighter and quieter than the Arai lid and way better vision. The sharp tests are easily fudged by some makers that is true but there are many factors in any "off" including how well it slides and what torsion is felt.

When full face lids first hit the scene many were adapted from car racing and caused life changing neck injuries, it took some years before the tech caught up with the actual specific bike use. 

Back in the late 60's early 70's choice was almost just a Bell full face and little else. Helmets were heavy. 

Modern lids even the cheap ones are way better than racers wore in the 70's. If you are comfortable you ride better. 


-------------
The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 08:37
A Shoei sales person says Shoei are better? The test they failed is wrong? I refer you to the answer previously given by Ms. Mandy Rice-Davis. 

Open face makes you statistically less likely to crash on the "big spike on the headstock" principle? What's the source? How did they diffentiate the fact that most people wear a full face because fashion dictates you do so on a race-rep doing wheelies, while old boys having a potter on their C15 wear corkers?

There are simply very few statistics to support any of this. The only proven fact is that any helmet designed for a motorcycle is better than none. We have the original British Army study from the war (corker vs soft cap vs Brodie shrapnel helmet) and then all the data as each country brought in then enforced helmet laws. Modern studies tend to have statistically insignificant numbers of casualties and limited (often biased) medical opinion (a doctor who failed to save his patient will always wish they'd worn a titanium bucket with 5 air bags and a wrist brace that prevents the throttle opening) .

By the time you crash you have already failed and more than likely going to be injured. Better to buy for vision and comfort IMHO. 

Andy


Posted By: R100CS
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 08:43
When I had my crash, my Schuberth C3 did it's job. No head/neck injuries although the scratches were in mij visor and I ended up on my back on the tarmac. I collided with a truck that ignored a red light when I was in a curve. Both colarbones broken, one enkle not so well. My boot was pulled of my foot, the zip was still closed, but the teeth were not in the garment any more. (Daytone)

-------------
1st R100CS flattened by a truck
2nd R1150R modified
3rd V7iii GREEN


Posted By: Ambermile
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 11:31
I appreciate the discussion vis. relative merits/demerits of open/closed/hinged and so on but the question was more the shallow one of aesthetics - do older bike riders (as in those riding older bikes) feel the need or indeed want to use a similar aged head protector as the bike? Let me be clear - I am not talking about a major roadtrip here, just out on a sunday morning cruise.


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 11:39
I bought a Kangol full face job in the early seventies and hated the claustrophobic, limited vision characteristics it possessed compared with my Everoak open face. I've stuck to open face helmets ever since. Davida's for many years because of their comfort and quietness. My current lid is a Bell made from carbon fibre, it is very light and comfortable with a wide field of vision, not so quiet as the Davida's so ear plugs are now a necessity.
No doubt the debate will go on until some twit in authority bans the open face veriaty.

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 12:16
Originally posted by c13pep c13pep wrote:

Beautiful looking Brough Superior there
Thumbs Up

CHRIS


Yes, shame it's not mine - ridden at one the National Motorcycle Museum's ride-a-bike days. These are highly recommended, giving the chance to ride everything from a 1911 single speed clutchless bike to a Norton F1 (at least on the time I went).


-------------
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 12:21
Originally posted by Ken-Guzzibear Ken-Guzzibear wrote:

. If you are comfortable you ride better. 


I agree absolutely. For the same reason I don't wear leathers etc but then I'm not travelling at Le Man speeds.... I do always have boots, gloves and a reasonable jacket.  I've survived to the age of 72.

I have a (totally unsubstantiated by data) view that an open face helmet where other road users can see your face makes them more aware that you are like them a vulnerable human being. The fashion for dark / iridescent visors makes riders look like robots. But as I say just a view.


-------------
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 15:40
"Just a view" but I can certainly see that there is lightly to be some truth in it.

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 17:00
It seems to me that eye contact is probably a good thing, but it also seems that there is an unspoken view that “I’m in a car, and anything smaller should give way to me”.  Aka “I’m coming through”.

This approach was certainly the case in India where the hierarchy started at Brahmin cattle, and descended through buses, trucks, elephants, foreign cars, Indian cars, motorbikes, bicycles, pedestrians, other large animals & then dogs.  Smaller animals were irrelevant.  

Traffic speeds were low, accidents were not uncommon, serious injuries were not unknown, but neither were they common in my experience.

Working on the theory that everyone else on the road is either incompetent or actively trying to kill me…


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 18:33
There was a study done in the USA that found Car drivers react to "perceived threat" before pulling out.

So a Motorcyclist in full leathers with full face lid was more likely to have a car pull out on them than the Guy on the Harley wearing a cut off as the "perceived threat" was higher.

The difference was incredible. Now there was a similar study done in the UK but the results were not published. 

However when reading this over here we must remember in many US States people do carry firearms. Something we noticed when we went to Daytona Florida.


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The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: Ambermile
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 19:14
Originally posted by Ken-Guzzibear Ken-Guzzibear wrote:

<snipped for brevity>

However when reading this over here we must remember in many US States people do carry firearms. Something we noticed when we went to Daytona Florida.

There's a thought - we should all wear helmets with mahoosive NRA stickers all over them LOL


Posted By: Omobono
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 11:09
I got my riding licence in Germany in 1998. 
In Germany, during lessons they show you photographs of riders wearing, among other things, jet helmets. Shocking stuff, and I mean shocking. 

During my whole motorbiking career, I only wore full face helmets for proper motorcycling, and jet helmets only at those speed that a bicycle might do (say: strolling around with an oldtimer). 

I also fell from the bike once, and saw the sky rotating above me a couple of times, or more. I rode back home without any real damage to me or the bike (glorious performance of my guardian angel). 

Without full leather and full helmet, I think it would have been a different story. 

I now feel very comfortable with my Shoei Neotec 2, which I think is worth every penny. Comfortable, silent, better than even my old, actually very good Schuberth C2. The Shoei is vastly superior to my Caberg, which is very good value for money but can't really compete. I don't miss a jet helmet and don't desire one. 

I don't really have beautiful teeth. But such as I have, I'd like to keep.  
 
I see it the same way as unsweetened black coffee. After two weeks, you get accustomed. 


Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 12:23
A lot of sense there. I was knocked off at 50mph by a twat who was just standing on the grass verge then decided to run out in front of me. I suffered brain damage and an orbital blow-out, in other words, blinded in 1 eye. The full face helmet undoubtedly saved my face and most likely my life. Given the choice, I would not have been wearing a lid at all when this happened, I only popped out for a haircut! Had I been wearing a more expensive helmet, I might have got away more lightly. My point is that speed does not really come into it and the pedestrian twat was no perceived threat.


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 12:40
As the pedestrian was presumably uninsured, I guess you had to sue him/her?



Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 20:23
He was killed. He was operating a burger van with no liability insurance. After 5 years, 'Bike Lawyer' from MCN won me enough in an out of court settlement from his motor insurance to cover my very large losses after Foootman James, my insurer just looked the other way.. I just couldn't raise enough to keep fighting through the courts. But it was a salutary lesson about the bash hat.


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 21:48
Glad you're still about  jerry

-------------
1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 22:18
Scary…


Posted By: iceni
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2021 at 11:59
Quote; "Foootman James, my insurer just looked the other way."

As  one of my cynical bosses once said  "you THINK you're insured"


Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2021 at 19:19
Thanks Johnno.
Very true remark about insurance, Iceni. On reflection, I think its worth paying the extra for legal cover. Not because the cut price solicitors used by the insurance company are any good but to pay for someone like 'Bike lawyer' to fight the case through the courts. My case was heard and won in the High Court. Then the other side appealed with a totally new story and set of excuses. Although my barrister was confident, I could not risk mortgaging my house to fight it.


Posted By: Guzzished
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2021 at 19:36
A grim tale to say the least, I'm not surprised by the insurance company's attitude though, I'd pass a comment but my honest opinion would definitely get this thread shut down. Angry GRRRR.


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2021 at 19:41
Originally posted by Guzzished Guzzished wrote:

A grim tale to say the least, I'm not surprised by the insurance company's attitude though, I'd pass a comment but my honest opinion would definitely get this thread shut down. Angry GRRRR.

 
After a lady drove into me I dare not say what I think of insurance companies even with full police support and all singing , dancing policy . 


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1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2021 at 21:30
In view of these experiences, does the learned collective think that the 2-wheeled equivalent of dash-cams (possible fore and aft) is a worthwhile investment?


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2021 at 22:46
Good question

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1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider


Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 07:51
Haha, yes, I'm forever searching for one that doesn't make me look like a Telly tubby I never seem able to get them mounted to give a good view unless its on top of me bonce.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 08:12
Be aware that mounting on a helmet has it's dangers.
You will know of Herr Schumacher's accident skiing, his severe brain injury was caused by a helmet mounted camera being forced into his head.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Softley
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 08:16
Ref dash cams. They MAY prove something did or did not happen but they do not prevent anything from happening. Only drivers/riders behaviour will prevent a traffic accident. Personally I do not want to mount any extra garbage on my lid or my bike. 
And remember how many more cameras do you want watching you? I would be interested to see real statistics that prove dash cameras work to prove claims rather just feeding the YouTube generation their daily fix of life's horrors. And there is the trial by Facebook/YouTube etc. 


Posted By: jemarch
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 08:19
Definitely full face for me. I cannot imagine travelling with an open helmet... cold, rain, insects.. Also I have gravel hits on my visor. 


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 09:10
I think cameras have good and bad points

Cost, they won't last more than a few years, they can equally prove you were guilty, a pain to mount.

They can prove you were in right. 

The reaction of other road users can vary from aggression to improvement to insanity based on trying to drive like they on their driving test in 1957.

My biggest issue is what will the sewer-ants actually use it for? They seem to want to settle all claims 50/50 because it is less work and the industry claws it back from all parties paying more. This is why I won't use the legal cover they sell with the legal mugging policy. Your own insurance company welching on the bet is as big a problem as the other party so you want your lawyer to work 100% for you.

The solution is the Australian Rego system where the basic cover has been nationalised so the industry has to compete for the top-up by giving extra services, but there is no momentum for change in the UK.

Andy


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 10:19
Also bear in mind that the use of dash cams is restricted, or even prohibited, in some European countries.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 13:18
Given that insurance is a legal obligation (and rightly so) it does seem to me that a national scheme that provides a base level of cover would be an excellent solution - it could be included with the road tax, for example, and adminsitered by those stout fellows in Swansea....  ok, but Andy's comment about Australian "rego" makes sense to me.

Do we have any idea of the relative costs of insurance in other countries?

Re cameras. I certainly would not be mounting a go-pro on my lid.  Fairly easy to mount one on the bike, and only a bit more complex to fit a "proper" permanent system.

didn't know they were illegal in parts of Europe.  The Russian ones provide hours of youtube entertainment!



Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 19:03
I'm sure we all remember Ronnie Pickering


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 20:02
Originally posted by Simond Simond wrote:


didn't know they were illegal in parts of Europe.  The Russian ones provide hours of youtube entertainment!


https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/08/using-your-dash-cam-abroad-what-you-need-to-know-about-driving-in-europe/" rel="nofollow - https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/08/using-your-dash-cam-abroad-what-you-need-to-know-about-driving-in-europe/


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 09:28
Holy Thread Resurrection, Batman…

My trusty Shoei Air2 is getting on for six years old, and is due for replacement.  

I inclined towards a flip-front but have never owned one, and would be interested in the experiences of anyone who does currently use one.

Does the added weight make much difference?
Do you ever ride round with the chin bar up?
Do you walk around with the helmet on and chin bar up?
Is it noisier than a FF equivalent?
Intercom pre-fitted or self-fitted?  Work ok?
I guess, fundamentally, is the convenience actually worth the extra cost and complexity?


Grateful for some experiences
Cheers
Simon



Posted By: trophydave
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 21:26
Ive been using Flip up lids for years,mainly Caberg ones.To answer your questions,I suppose they are a bit heavier but Ive never really noticed.Sometimes I might set off with the chin bar up but it gets flipped down by the time I reach the junction at the end of the road,I wouldnt ride around with it up.The only time I walk around with helmet on and chin bar up is when filling up with petrol.I do find it farly noisy so use earplugs on all journeys no matter how long or short they are.I dont use an intercom so cant help there.On balance,yes I like them.


Posted By: Jerry atric
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 21:43
Last year I changed my Nitro flip up for a Shoei flip up. Couldn't believe the difference, you certainly get what you pay for. They are great for petrol stations etc or boiling hot days (remember those?£)


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 22:05
Thanks Dave, Jerry,

Cheers
Simon


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 06:57
I had a Schuberth. Noisy as heck and really really heavy. No way you could ride with the chin bar open. Also really bad for fogging because they'd done nothing by the way of extra ventilation when they added a flap to try and close under the chin. 

Roof solved the weight and riding open face with basically a jet style helmet with a facade of a chin bar. Still noisy and no more protection than the jet style. This failed by the chin catches snapping after a year, so in the wrong crash that chin bar was going to do nothing. 

You need to read individual reviews and go try them on. 

To me they became obsolete when pay-at-the-pump arrived. I'll remove a full face to talk to people, get a cuppa etc. and ride with the best protection to my hearing, neck, pin-lock to avoid accidents etc. On a few sunny days riding the CL350 I'll go with the open face for ten or twenty miles.

Andy 


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 08:15
I got a flip helmet when they introduced identity checks at work. Wearing glasses, it's a right pain to take the helmet off just so that can be done before riding into the bike park area.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: ranton_rambler
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 12:41
I have a Shark Evoline 3, which is homologated to ride either as a full-face or with the chin-bar locked behind in open-face mode.
It is quite noisy so I always wear earplugs, but it's easy to use with glasses and has a drop-down sun-visor.


Posted By: Jim Mac
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 19:59
Caberg for last three,  ride with front up unless rains.  Bit noisy, but no buffering on the Norge at top speeds.

-------------
Norge 1200 GT 8v   T5 Polizia   BMW R45
Too old to die young


Posted By: tonti
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 22:02
When i started motorcycleing open face was the only option there were no full face helmets marketed for us. Then i remember getting a full face stadium? probably about 1970 i must have been the only one around my area people used to stare at me ,next i got a orange bell cost then was around £95 from memory to give you a idea how expensive that was i used to buy my velocettes for around £30. The bell was very heavy but in one off that broke a tooth i put a big groove in the chin guard so believe in full face helmets . The next time i was knocked of the bike involved major life changing injuries and i came very close ending up in a wood box that full face helmet also had major damage to the chin guard. That put paid to my one and only passion for 3 decades wife and children came first. When i then started to get my mojo back for a bike i went to get a new full face helmet and had a panic attack when i put one on and i realy mean a panic attack. I was ok with a open face then i was asked if i wanted to try a flip front i was ok with it flipped up but as soon as i flipped it down i started to get a bit paniced, flipped it up and i was ok so after flipping it up and down a few times i was ok and paid up. I've gone through 3 flip fronts £30 lidl was the cheapest and not  a bad helmet but a bit noisy and fairly light . Can't remember the next but that was noisy ,my current is a shoei neotec noisy and heavy and very expensive but it was the only hemet that seemed to fit my head properly when i tried every flip front at j&s in hamilton. What i do like about them is you can flip up whan your stopped and get more fresh air especialy handy when its very hot or want to talk  but what i don't like is there all noisy and the weight of them or maybe it's the weight distribution but i'm not sure  and non of the flip down sun visors have been that good as there just tinted and not polerized. Ive got over my fear? of the full face helmet and when trying them on they seam lighter but i don't think i could wear one as the flip front is more practical. Wheather it's less safe than a full face i don't know but would i ride with a open face my answer is definatly no.


Posted By: Guzzi1000SE
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 23:47
I was thinking about getting a system helmet a couple of years ago.  After quite a bit of research and luckily as I don't live too far away from the Leeds SportsBike Shop, which allows you to test ride helmets.  I took a couple of helmets out on test, anyway I finished up buying a full face.  I'm not saying that system helmets aren't any good, just that the 2 in my price bracket didn't suit me.  The new Shoei Neotec 2 came out just afterwards and I have heard nothing but good things about it.  Including when I did my Bike Safe course earlier this year.  Two out of the three instructors including the lead trainer which was a police Sgt wore them and recommended them.

I'm don't know if these websites will be of any use, but I find them useful.     

https://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/testrideme" rel="nofollow - https://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/testrideme

https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/" rel="nofollow - https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/

https://billyscrashhelmets.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - https://billyscrashhelmets.co.uk/
   


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 06:54
Originally posted by ranton_rambler ranton_rambler wrote:

I have a Shark Evoline 3, which is homologated to ride either as a full-face or with the chin-bar locked behind in open-face mode.
It is quite noisy so I always wear earplugs, but it's easy to use with glasses and has a drop-down sun-visor.

I  replaced my second Caberg Duke flip front, homologated to use as an open face with a Shark Evo S because the review on MCN said they were quiet and comfortable, not too heavy and I liked that the chin bar flips around completely and doesn't stick up into the airflow like a flip front. This was a mistake. The Shark was much more expensive than the Caberg, more uncomfortable and noisier. As I only use the open face mode at low speed in hot weather, I will be replacing it with another Caberg Duke of similar.


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 07:23
Thanks guys, I’ve posted on three fora, and the answers were broadly positive re flip-front, but there is a bit more perspective here.

Price-wise, a couple of quid per week will buy you a £500 helmet and peace of mind, though if that were cheaper, I wouldn’t mind!  

I think the only concerning negative thing I’ve seen re the Neotec was the MCN review which said that if you open the visor in the rain, water will run down the inside.  That might be annoying.

https://products.motorcyclenews.com/clothing/helmets/shoei-neotec-ii-review/" rel="nofollow - https://products.motorcyclenews.com/clothing/helmets/shoei-neotec-ii-review/

I wasn’t aware that some shops allow test rides, that would definitely get my attention, I’ll have to see who does that locally.

Thanks again
Simon 



Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 10:18
Originally posted by Simond Simond wrote:

.. a £500 helmet and peace of mind


I do hope you aren't assuming high selling price equates to greater protection?

Selling price is set by what the market will pay. Graphics and brand names work to achieve this. 

The data  http://sharp.dft.gov.uk/" rel="nofollow - http://sharp.dft.gov.uk/  backs this up. You can get a top rated helmet for £150 and a poor one for £600.

Reviews and going to try them on are the only way to find out about fit and features that might suit you above knowing the tested level.

Andy 


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 10:31
Andy - that link isn't correct, it's https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/" rel="nofollow - https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/ (https not http).

Sadly they don't test open face helmets. You can actually get a top rated helmet for £70 - made by Nitro, who make my open face model. https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/helmets/nitro-aikido/" rel="nofollow - https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/helmets/nitro-aikido/


-------------
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500


Posted By: Guzzi1000SE
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 10:53
Originally posted by iansoady iansoady wrote:

You can actually get a top rated helmet for £70 - made by Nitro, who make my open face model. https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/helmets/nitro-aikido/" rel="nofollow - https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/helmets/nitro-aikido/

I totally agree.

But it's not just about the star rating, it's also about fit, finish and if you want to pay more for the added features that more expensive helmets tend to have, but not always. 

For instance, I like a having a retractable sun visor, but my understanding is Aria don't fit them as they believe it can compromise the safety of the helmet? 




Posted By: Steph
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 18:02
Originally posted by Guzzi1000SE Guzzi1000SE wrote:

Originally posted by iansoady iansoady wrote:

You can actually get a top rated helmet for £70 - made by Nitro, who make my open face model. https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/helmets/nitro-aikido/" rel="nofollow - https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/helmets/nitro-aikido/

I totally agree.

But it's not just about the star rating, it's also about fit, finish and if you want to pay more for the added features that more expensive helmets tend to have, but not always. 

For instance, I like a having a retractable sun visor, but my understanding is Aria don't fit them as they believe it can compromise the safety of the helmet? 



To me, Arai’s stance make sense.
Internal sun visors are not supported by the outer shell, like the clear visor.
In an accident, if the unfortunate rider’s head is slammed against a fairing screen or handlebar with the clear visor up and the sun visor down.  A direct hit on the sun visor will at the very least cut your nose pretty bad.

The solution is to always keep the clear visor partly down but I mostly see riders with only the sun visor down.



-------------
Cali Stone
LM3


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 21:47
Originally posted by Andy M Andy M wrote:

Originally posted by Simond Simond wrote:

.. a £500 helmet and peace of mind


I do hope you aren't assuming high selling price equates to greater protection?

Selling price is set by what the market will pay. Graphics and brand names work to achieve this. 

The data  http://sharp.dft.gov.uk/" rel="nofollow - http://sharp.dft.gov.uk/  backs this up. You can get a top rated helmet for £150 and a poor one for £600.

Reviews and going to try them on are the only way to find out about fit and features that might suit you above knowing the tested level.

Andy 

Thanks Andy,

No, not assuming, I spent much of my adult life explaining that to my mother (albeit not about crash helmets).

That said, whilst you might not get what you pay for, you most certainly won’t get what you don’t pay for.  
This will be reflected in the fit, function, appearance and longevity of the product, as well as in its objective performance.  My preference would be for a five star Sharp rating, and approval to ECE 22.06. 

And as has been oft repeated, try it on, make sure it fits comfortably. 

(And I have no desire for graphics, though I find my integral sunvisor absolutely indispensable.  Shoei do say that you should use it behind, not in place of the proper visor)

Atb
Simon


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 11:21
Thumbs Up

I'm always torn on things like sun visors.

Name one person who has a scar on their nose because of one? We can make a list of people starting with me who have struggled with low sun and not crashed because they had lightly tinted glasses/goggles/visors that were also not misted up. You can design a tank without any means for the crew to see out and they won't get hit by that one in a million bullet coming in through a vision slit, but the first thing they'll know about the killer missile is when it explodes.

I wore an open face for years because they don't mist. Pinlock and better vents now allows the best of both, but honestly I think I'd still take preventative vision over post-crash protection. Same goes for comfort, you can't concentrate on not crashing if your 6-star rated lid gives you a headache. I keep buying HJC's because they fit well. 

Andy 


Posted By: Jim Mac
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 11:44
rain drops will form on the inside if you it flipped up, can be a nuisance if there is a lot

-------------
Norge 1200 GT 8v   T5 Polizia   BMW R45
Too old to die young


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 12:11
I tried flip front lid a Caberg find them heavy and whilst great in the sun with the drop down sun visor in rain it was horrible ... even with the pinlock , it was also noisy.

Open face tried an Arai, ok but noisy and not that good, bought a Davida Jet very very light very comfy, quiet with great finish in hot weather there are no vents to keep your head cool.

Full face Arai the basic one very quiet and light with pinlock fitted in Summer one that has reactalight in it, the vents keep my head cool this is the comfiest lid of the lot I added one of the helmet skirts to the bottom.

In the past I have owned Shoei lids as well as going back to the 70's an Owen made to measure lid, which at the time was the top lid, compared to modern lids they were heavy and the visor was awful. 

In conclusion if you ride all year round the flip lids are good however they are a compromise, not that cheap often heavy. 


-------------
The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: jmee54
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 15:08
I have riden all of my classic bikes with an open face helmet for decades.
They are lighter, give better vision and let you smell the roses.

I bought a ROOF flip over helmet a few years ago which had a 180 degree chin bar but didn't get on with it. I have just bought another 180 degree helmet (LS2) that arrived this morning. I was a bit worried I would turn into a bobble head and I believe my concerns were founded! It seems all helmets are huge now to comply with ever increasing safety certifications.
My new helmet might end up living permanently on the shelf - we'll see.

I enjoy a ride much more in an open face helmet.


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 16:18
Couldn't agree more. I tried a full face but felt absolutely claustrophobic in it. I also have a theory that if oncoming vehicle conductors can actually see your face they're more likely to recognise a fellow human being and be slightly more caring. I can't think of a way to test this with a double blind RCT trial however......


-------------
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500


Posted By: Guzzi1000SE
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 16:27
I know everyone on here will be aware of this but just in case, don't forget most helmets have a recommended life span of five years after purchase or seven years after the production date.  They should have a production date on the inside somewhere.  When looking for my last helmet I came across a really good deal on a particular helmet, just as I was about to purchase, I remembered to check the manufacturing date, which stated the helmet was nearly four years old.  I queried this in the shop stating that this particular manufacture recommended changing your helmet seven years after this date, therefore meaning this helmet was only to be used for the next three years?  The shop's reply, they are stock we have had in the back for sometime, that's why the deal is so good, I walked away.  I finished up waiting and buying a full face HJC in the black Friday deals and as I write this, they are still more expensive now than when I bought mine almost two years ago.     


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 18:47
Thanks for that, good advice for all of us, I guess



Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 08:14
The time constraints are set by people who want you to buy a new helmet.

Plastic (and rubber) are degraded by acids (sweat), UV light, moisture and high temperatures. A new helmet, in its box, in a storeroom at 15 degrees is barely degrading (the St. Greta cultists hate them because they take a millennia to compost).

Convert the 5 years to a potential worst case in days, its a dispatcher in Bangkok and is over 1800 days. If you rode every Sunday, washed the liner and stored it in its bag in a cool cupboard it would last 30 years.

The truth is somewhere in between, but I wouldn't get hung up on the numbers unless you are out every day. The straps wear through first.

Andy 


Posted By: KirriePete
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 11:24
Basic rule of thumb - if it fits snugly, the lining & straps aren't worn out and the shell isn't visibly faded, it's probably fine.

As an instructor I go through (flippy) helmets every 2 years or so, they just get slack on my head despite washing the lining regularly, so they end up as play helmets for my grandsons.  My playtime helmet is an old Shoei I've had for 12 years and it's only this year I'm thinking of replacing it as the vinyl on the lining and straps is flaking - it does spend a lot of time in it's bag in a cupboard.

At the end of the day, it's your head, go with whatever you feel is right.


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 12:57
Some time ago at what was the BMF show and at many GP's Arai used to check and x-ray one of their lids and issue a safety certificate .... Annie had an Arai the basic one that at 8 yrs was still good ... 

-------------
The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 13:26
I'm just thinking of the conversation now with the NEC manager

"Yeah, we'll be pumping out a few milli-Roetgens a day, but don't worry, it'll barely add up to the dose they'd get riding to Chernobyl..." LOL

Andy 


Posted By: PhilBuck
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2022 at 21:39
I usually ride with full face helmets, and do have an older flip-up one for when I was doing Blood Bike runs and needed to speak to people without having to take the helmet off.
But I do think that my Griso requires a different look, ie an open face style, but that didn't sit easy with me.
The flip up (if homologated) would do the job, but not the look of the thing!
So Ive recently got one of the "jet style" helmets, where the chin bar can be rotated right over to the back of the helmet, and in some of the manufacturers, looks quite sleek, whereas others, don't!!
So that's my compromise. If I'm just mooching around with no great speeds involved, I'll flip it back, or if I'm covering distance on motorways, it reverts to the full face.
Works for me.

-------------
Buckers


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2022 at 08:07
Originally posted by PhilBuck PhilBuck wrote:

... I do think that my Griso requires a different look, ie an open face style, but that didn't sit easy with me.
... .

Too right. Literal victims of fashion are out there Unhappy. Cruiser riders mostly, soaked, frozen and unprotected because ripped denim and lids styled after war souvenirs have a look they like Ouch.

Andy 


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2022 at 12:59
To be honest rarely see the ripped jeans and German Helmet type riding gear nowadays. That "look" died a death in the 70's.

There was one of those "surveys done not too long ago that showed heavy denim was as good as cheap leather, the armoured denim better than cheap leather. I have some very heavy Wrangler and Levi jeans bought in Florida they are way heavier denim than you can buy in the UK they are "Rodeo" quality jeans.  

How opinions change over the years. 1920's racing gear consisted of "Stout Boots" cap on backwards, goggles, Gauntlets and tweed. 

By the 60's piss pot cork lined lids leathers too.

It was not really until mid 70's full face lids became available and many were designed for use in cars therefore actually more likely to cause severe neck injury when used on a bike. 

I remember my 1st lid, when wearing one was optional was an open lid piss pot with leather sides but it had an attached visor, Next one was a Stadium Jet with detachable peak with the all important "Moon Eyes" 

It was sometime later I went and got measured for an "Owen" helmet with blue lining at the time they were expensive and compared to a modern base model Arai or Shoei lid the visor was awful and the lid very comfy but heavy. 




-------------
The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: BondEquipe
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 11:11
Originally posted by Ken-Guzzibear Ken-Guzzibear wrote:


How opinions change over the years. 1920's racing gear consisted of "Stout Boots" cap on backwards, goggles, Gauntlets and tweed. 


Not quite true.  Helmets (such as they were) wee compulsory at the TT from 1914. Things changed in 1935 with the death of T.E. Lawrence. The doctor that attended Lawrence, Hugh Cairns, initiated a study due to Lawrence’s death, as he realised that the brain lesions were directly correlated with those accidents where no protective helmet was worn.



-------------
Stephen
Black & Gold LM2
+ Other Bikes & Projects!


Posted By: Speciality
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 11:57
For most of my riding I wear a Shoei full face. I always buy plain white, usually the "lesser" model (Ryde currently). I also have a Davida classic style open face. I wear this when riding my classic style bike, but only when the weather is favourable. I tend to use the David visor rather than my goggles. The field of vision is much better when wearing this (so better risk likelihood score), but the risk of damage should an accident occur is higher (so higher risk impact score). Arguably they cancel out risk-wise, but practical considerations such as rain in the face, bugs in beard, heat etc also come into play. When I started riding helmets were not compulsory. I did occasionally ride without one but at that time with hair and beard the length they were it took a long time to untangle/comb out the bugs..... Quite liberating for the odd ride though.


Posted By: TooJuicy
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 21:34
Originally posted by Ken-Guzzibear Ken-Guzzibear wrote:

surveys done not too long ago that showed heavy denim was as good as cheap leather,


It's a detour from the original post, but it's criminal that biking gear can be had made of cheap leather.  Traditional biker leather is the top outer skin of hide and is as tough as its reputation.  However the lower inside slice of the hide is fibrousy with a loose internal structure,  it's cheap to buy cos no one really wants it and cheap to process because it's soft and weak - ideal for fashion  garments.  Such a shame the cheap product is foisted onto unsuspecting bikers.

I ride in both premium Hideout leather trousers (as sold to Police) and kevlar lined biker jeans made by Hood (back in the day the manufacturer of UK Wrangler jeans).  One feels indestructible, one is ideal for off-bike wearing.

Tony

PS I began with a Stadium Jet open face in the early 70s but by the mid 70s anyone on a bike of 100cc or more all wore full face - I think my plastic AGV full face cost about £20!


Posted By: Simond
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 22:32
Vote for Hood jeans.  I have a couple of pairs.  

Hope I never need to try them out, but they fit well, and feel very solid.  I don’t have the armour in them, but wear them all day at work, as well as the morning and evening commute.


Posted By: BondEquipe
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 16:04
Originally posted by TooJuicy TooJuicy wrote:

It's a detour from the original post, but it's criminal that biking gear can be had made of cheap leather. 

Legally it can't anymore and Trading Standards have been doing rounds at the shows shutting down firms that are either claiming that their cheap crap is CE Approved or selling fashion leather as protective gear.


-------------
Stephen
Black & Gold LM2
+ Other Bikes & Projects!


Posted By: Jim Mac
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 16:14
just bought a new caberg duke 2,  very light, comfortable and quiet.  my 5th caberg

-------------
Norge 1200 GT 8v   T5 Polizia   BMW R45
Too old to die young


Posted By: V7Chris
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 09:23
Originally posted by Jim Mac Jim Mac wrote:

just bought a new caberg duke 2,  very light, comfortable and quiet.  my 5th caberg

I'll be going back to a Caberg Duke after my unsuccessful dalliance with a Shark convertible or whatever it's called. The Caberg is not over priced either.



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