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Starter relays

Printed From: guzziriders.org - moto guzzi forum
Category: Technical
Forum Name: General Electrical issues
Forum Description: Not specific to any one group of models.
URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=11719
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 15:31
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Starter relays
Posted By: italianmotor
Subject: Starter relays
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 12:03
So on the V35, it has a Bendix type starter motor, so without solenoid like the later ones.

So would a new starter relay (black one) will do the same job as the old relay? Both are rated at 40 amps. The old relay may still work, haven't tested it yet.





Replies:
Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 13:15
I should think so.I recently replaced the original relay on the 850 GT with a Durite generic one. It works fine.

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 15:18
Are you sure there is no solenoid? The start relay is not capable of passing the starter motor current.
I must admit, I thought all the small blocks had the pre-engagement starter rather than a bendix. But a bendix motor also has a solenoid to switch the hunderd+ Amps involved.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 16:07
As far as I can see by referring to Carl Allison's wiring diagrams all of the 350 models have a solenoid, as you would expect.

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 10:13
Ah well Dave, I always go with original manual information where I can, this is from the V35 workshop manual, showing the non-solenoid starter, and the metal relay near it. The wiring diagram also shows this start in place. In the notes below the diagram, it actually says that the Bendix starter is not available as a spare part but will be replaced with the usual solenoid type. But obviously some bikes were fitted with them from the factory, including the one I have. In fact when I went to see it, I was telling the owner it was the wrong starter motor..


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 10:15
So the solenoid is tucked inside somewhere Brian?

Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Are you sure there is no solenoid? The start relay is not capable of passing the starter motor current.
I must admit, I thought all the small blocks had the pre-engagement starter rather than a bendix. But a bendix motor also has a solenoid to switch the hunderd+ Amps involved.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 12:31
I don't know, where does the heavy wire to the starter motor come from? Trace it back.
If it comes from that relay, then it will be a special one for very high current, so a modern replacement would not work - well not for more than half a dozen starts anyway.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 12:36
Looking in the workshop manual, two starters are listed, one bendix type and one pre-engagement type.
The former is Bosch DG 12v 4HP
The latter Bosch DF 12v 7HP.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 14:58
Point taken Adam. The wiring diagrams do all appear to show a solenoid so apparently not all of the diagrams are listed.
The arrangement shown in the drawing you posted looks much like the Laverda twin setup. No solenoid, but a 75amp relay instead.

https://www.laverda-paradies.de/shop/Bilder/Artikelbilder/9-42.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://www.laverda-paradies.de/shop/Bilder/Artikelbilder/9-42.jpg

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 15:53
Thanks Dave. Here's the wiring diagram that shows the setup, the relay I have is same as on the left. I assume the switch in the starter motor is a solenoid then? Anyway, I will wire it all up as per the factory wiring diagram and see if it all works ok. If not, I might just find a used later starter motor, th0ugh this one does work.






Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 16:33
I assumed (wrongly perhaps)that the switch shown inside the starter motor was a solenoid hence my initial post. Can someone qualified in these matters clarify please? Always happy to learn.

Perhaps the Nippon Denso on Laverda twins had a solenoid built in too; I never looked. They are a hefty .95 HP.

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 17:10
As far as I'm concerned a solenoid is effectively a hefty relay (but often also moves something like the actuating mechanism for a pre-engaged starter).

We always used to call the thing that switched the current for Bendix starters a solenoid even though it was just a relay.


-------------
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958-ish Greeves/Triumph in progress


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 17:25
If the starter motor has two connections, one big terminal for the main battery wire and one smaller one for the relay output, then there is a solenoid contained in the starter.
If this is the case, then any 30 or 40 Amp modern relay will be fine.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 20:00

So I had some time to look at the relay today. I cleaned it up as best as I could, and checked it over with the multimeter, all connections seem sound. I connected up all the relevant wiring, and a charged battery, and tried to start the bike. The relay works, as in that it clicks, but the starter motor doesn’t turn. I checked with my meter and 12 volts aren’t getting across the contacts when the starter button is pushed. There is a spark between the contacts, seems quite bluish, a bit like when points have gone bad. What was odd though is when I had the + of my meter on the contact with the wire with white insulation on it, and the - connected to the crankcase, the starter motor turned fine - don’t know what’s going there though. So can I assume that maybe the contacts are worn and the current is just not getting across? Only way I can really tell is find another relay. Or another starter motor…any opinions?







Posted By: Richard Hyatt
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 20:38
I can't quite see in the picture , but are the big heavy contacts eaten away?

Try this,
Put your meter on volts scale
1 clip on the big heavy connection directly from the battery.
1 clip on the big heavy wire that goes away to feed the starter motor. 
You should not show any volts at this point.
Then press the button to start the bike and see how many volts show up now.
Any more than 0.5 then you're losing it across these big contacts in the relay.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 21:37
Or remove all the wires, and put an ohm meter across the points when you press them together with your finger (using your third hand of course).

But get some fine emery paper, push the contacts together with the emery between them and clean up the points surface. Do both sides of course. Once clean it will probably work again for the next 40 years.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 09:15
Hi Brian, thanks, I'll try all that - perhaps I hadn't made it clear that I had cleaned everything up already, including cleaning the contacts with emery paper and electrical spray. I do wonder if they're just worn out. Shame because the rest of it works fine! Anyway of refacing them with solder or similar, though I assume not..


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 14:05
Tried this, shows continuity, no problem.

Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Or remove all the wires, and put an ohm meter across the points when you press them together with your finger (using your third hand of course).

But get some fine emery paper, push the contacts together with the emery between them and clean up the points surface. Do both sides of course. Once clean it will probably work again for the next 40 years.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 14:07
Originally posted by Richard Hyatt Richard Hyatt wrote:

I can't quite see in the picture , but are the big heavy contacts eaten away?

Try this,
Put your meter on volts scale
1 clip on the big heavy connection directly from the battery.
1 clip on the big heavy wire that goes away to feed the starter motor. 
You should not show any volts at this point.

I did this - there was 12 volts showing across the connections you describe above, with the relay connections open. So I guess this isn't right?


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 16:14
Interesting. So the side of the relay connected to the starter is earthed.
Well if there was no solenoid in the starter motor, this would be the case, or almost, earthed through the windings of the motor. But if there is a solenoid then it is stuck in the closed position.

OR there is a fundamental fault in the wiring.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 17:41
https://ibb.co/b6W4p0m" rel="nofollow">

As starter motors and solenoids are being discussed and hoping not to hijack this thread, can anyone educate me as to how this Laverda 750 twin starter motor works without a solenoid and with only a 75amp relay?
I do like to know these things.

Sorry the picture isn't bigger.




-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: Richard Hyatt
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 18:24
Hmm,
So with wiring all in place, and the voltmeter across the big heavy contacts and you not pressing anything,
There is 12 volt showing on the meter.
Right, if it is a bendix type starter, then this would be correct as the 12v from the battery is finding the earth coming through the windings.
Have you tried starting it and seeing what voltage still appears in the  meter, whilst the relay is working .
Another thought is to use a jump led red positive direct from your battery, clip it to a decent size screwdriver and prod this onto the starter motor side of your relay.
If the bike turns over with this and not via the relay then you have a dodgy relay

Take care though


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 18:52
Dave, looks like the same starter I have been on about, apart from the chain drive bit. In fact I have been reading on some Laverda forums about this relay.

Originally posted by Dave P. Dave P. wrote:

https://ibb.co/b6W4p0m" rel="nofollow">

As starter motors and solenoids are being discussed and hoping not to hijack this thread, can anyone educate me as to how this Laverda 750 twin starter motor works without a solenoid and with only a 75amp relay?
I do like to know these things.

Sorry the picture isn't bigger.




Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 18:55
Yes, it's a Bendix inertia starter. I didn't try looking at the voltage while starting, I will do, though I know that on starting, no current reaches the lead from the relay to the starter motor, though it is there when not starting. I will try your other suggestion too. What I don't understand is that how come 12v passes through from the battery to the starter motor lead with the relay contacts being open?

I'm thinking this will do the job? I'm not bothered with period correct stuff that doesn't work:  https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/177/category/36" rel="nofollow - https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/177/category/36


Originally posted by Richard Hyatt Richard Hyatt wrote:

Hmm,
So with wiring all in place, and the voltmeter across the big heavy contacts and you not pressing anything,
There is 12 volt showing on the meter.
Right, if it is a bendix type starter, then this would be correct as the 12v from the battery is finding the earth coming through the windings.
Have you tried starting it and seeing what voltage still appears in the  meter, whilst the relay is working .
Another thought is to use a jump led red positive direct from your battery, clip it to a decent size screwdriver and prod this onto the starter motor side of your relay.
If the bike turns over with this and not via the relay then you have a dodgy relay

Take care though


Posted By: Richard Hyatt
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 19:38
The reason it is showing 12 volts when just sitting there doing nothing is due to the earth from the engine block/ starter body coming back up through the starter windings into the thick wire and up to the relay.Thats normal and expected , don't worry.
The idea of putting the voltmeter across the relay big heavy terminals is that this should in theory show 0volts when you're trying to start it.
0volts indicates that the relay contacts are passing 100% of the battery power to the starter
If they're in bad condition then only X% goes to the starter leaving Y% to get to the starter but via the meter.
Depending how big Y is will dictate if the relay contacts are shot or ok
Sorry to get technical !


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 22:26
Actually at this point I would put a voltmeter positive probe onto the relay terminal carrying the wire from the battery, the negative probe onto earth. You should see 12v there (or whatever battery volts you have). Then press the start button. Does the voltage you see change? If it doesn't, then the relay contacts have gone.

But Adam, can you clear up one thing. On the starter motor itself, is there one terminal or two (one big and one small)?


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 22:28
Originally posted by Dave P. Dave P. wrote:



As starter motors and solenoids are being discussed and hoping not to hijack this thread, can anyone educate me as to how this Laverda 750 twin starter motor works without a solenoid and with only a 75amp relay?
I do like to know these things.

What ratio is the chain drive?
It's possible the starter doesn't take such a high current and the 70A relay is enough to carry the current required.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 22:30
Originally posted by italianmotor italianmotor wrote:

I'm thinking this will do the job? I'm not bothered with period correct stuff that doesn't work:  https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/177/category/36" rel="nofollow - https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/177/category/36

That relay would certainly do the job of the one you have.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 23:06
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Originally posted by Dave P. Dave P. wrote:



As starter motors and solenoids are being discussed and hoping not to hijack this thread, can anyone educate me as to how this Laverda 750 twin starter motor works without a solenoid and with only a 75amp relay?
I do like to know these things.

What ratio is the chain drive?
It's possible the starter doesn't take such a high current and the 70A relay is enough to carry the current required.


I can't remember the ratio Brian (if I ever knew in the first place). I wondered if the planetary gears had something to do with reducing the current required because of reduction ratios. I confess that I'm out of my depth here.

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2020 at 23:09
Planetary gears certainly reduce the current, they allow the armature to spin much faster.

-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 09:27
Ah! That must be the answer then.

-------------
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 11:00
Hi Brian - it's the same as this, this is a pic from Ebay, so just one terminal.

Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Actually at this point I would put a voltmeter positive probe onto the relay terminal carrying the wire from the battery, the negative probe onto earth. You should see 12v there (or whatever battery volts you have). Then press the start button. Does the voltage you see change? If it doesn't, then the relay contacts have gone.

But Adam, can you clear up one thing. On the starter motor itself, is there one terminal or two (one big and one small)?


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 13:35
So there is no solenoid in the system, the start relay is the solenoid and carries the starter motor current.
So I suspect your relay has bad contacts. That 100A relay you looked at should be ideal.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 19:06
I tried this Brian, and yes, the voltage didn't flicker from the usual 12 volts plus the battery was showing.
One thing I did notice is the the battery light on the dash is not lighting up, but this would have nothing to do with it? I checked the bulb, has resistance, so assume it must be another issues.

Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Actually at this point I would put a voltmeter positive probe onto the relay terminal carrying the wire from the battery, the negative probe onto earth. You should see 12v there (or whatever battery volts you have). Then press the start button. Does the voltage you see change? If it doesn't, then the relay contacts have gone.

But Adam, can you clear up one thing. On the starter motor itself, is there one terminal or two (one big and one small)?


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2020 at 20:50
Your relay isn't relaying.

The battery/charge warning light is not connected to this problem.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 10:18
Thanks Brian, I'm going to order the one I linked to and report back. I think the battery light isn't coming on as the bike has stood for quite a while, and seeing as I can't really get it started, it'll wait until next week - maybe the rotor needs flashing..


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 10:26
Interestingly enough, here's a pic of another very original V35 with the same starter motor, and the original plastic cover too, I've never see one.






Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 10:58
If the bike has stood for some time, check the brushes are making contact with the slip rings.

-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 12:13
Funny enough there was someone with a 75A bosch relay from a BMW on here 

-------------
The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: Ian T
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 12:48
Meeeeeeeee

From me K75s

https://postimg.cc/tYs8JJGD" rel="nofollow">

How soon one is forgotten Cry

Cheers

Ian


-------------
Ian (neophyte juicer under training)


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2020 at 16:50
Ah, just bought this, 15 quid, am gonna try it on Monday, hope it resolves the starting issue..




Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2020 at 16:52
Will do that, thanks Brian. I have already checked continuity in all the wiring and it's fine, so hoping it's something simple.

Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

If the bike has stood for some time, check the brushes are making contact with the slip rings.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2020 at 18:25
So I fitted the new really, as above. At first, click click, nothing. Then it all started working. Started the bike fine, span the starter several times in a row, Had the bike running, but still no charging, for a while. Then, back to click click click, all on a decently charged battery. So I don't really know what I have discovered...


Posted By: Richard Hyatt
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2020 at 20:09
OK
Earth problem maybe?
Battery negative to engine / chassis?
Put a jump lead negative to battery neg and other end to the block.
See if that goes



Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2020 at 22:21
If it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, they you have a dodgy connection somewhere.

Intermittent faults can be a pig to find though.

However, if the charging is also not working it could be a bad earth, try as Richard suggests.
Check where the battery is earthed to the frame.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 16:00
Thanks for the suggestion chaps, sorted it. I eventually took the starter motor off the bike (should have done this from the beginning, oh well..), the connection to the bolt that goes through the starter body was loose, hence dodgy connection. So, cleaned it all up, tighten it all up properly and heat date old rubber boot so it would slip back over the terminal. Put it back, tried the old relay again just in case, nothing, fitted the new relay, starts beautifully on the button now, and I did also have to restore the starter button with a different spring too out of some old switchgear - so all works perfectly.

But - still no charge light/charging. Today I checked all the wiring and also substituted the bulb, rotor, regulator and stator with like for like parts off a V50 that I know charges perfectly. Tried flashing the rotor too - nothing, no charge light. Only rectifier to look at but will it really be this? Also cleaned loads dried/dirty connectors. Earth strap and frame where it bolts too also cleaned up well. I tried following the charging circuit troubleshooter but don't have an ammeter so got stuck there. Everything else checks out ok so far. The biggest hassle is that all the stuff is packed into that small space in front of the airbag, all bolted to each other, and it's just a pig to get to or remove anything. Grrr..


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 16:22
Looking at the wiring diagram the charge light bulb is connected directly to  the rectifier so any fault there would affect the whole charging system.

CHRIS


-------------
you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza
Honda CB77 project



Posted By: Richard Hyatt
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 16:43
On my v50 the culprit was bad brushes not conducting to the comutator


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 17:02
That's probably the most common fault.

-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 17:03
I tried a rotor and stator off a V50 that I know work, didn't make any difference. I measured the original brushes, they are within Guzziology spec - they are very curved though..

Originally posted by Richard Hyatt Richard Hyatt wrote:

On my v50 the culprit was bad brushes not conducting to the comutator


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 17:04
I've checked the bulb, bulb holder, continuity to rectifier, all fine. Maybe next I'll have to pull out the rectifier.

Originally posted by c13pep c13pep wrote:

Looking at the wiring diagram the charge light bulb is connected directly to  the rectifier so any fault there would affect the whole charging system.

CHRIS


Posted By: Richard Hyatt
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 17:35
Do you get 12volts at  the brush .
This 12 volts comes from the regulator and gives you the field magnetism .
You need this in order to get any output from the rotor


Posted By: italianmotor
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2020 at 18:25
Finally got it charging - what a relief! I was lucky I have to say that I had other good parts to try part substition one by one to try and trace the fault, but, in the end, I believe that it was a case of the wiring to the rectifier being connected up incorrectly. The guy I bought it from said “yes it charges fine”, which I now find impossible to believe. Anyway, having eventually tried a known good rectifier, I then realised because of the bodged wiring, all in the same colour, with crappy pre-insulated terminals that I personally hate, that one of the the connections was wrong, but tough to spot with wire all the same colour. Once corrected, with wire sorted and correct colours reinstated, it all worked and that little charge light bulb lost up - I was so happy! So now, all the original components are back on the bike, and I have got rid of all the crappy bodged wiring and replaced with what I think are proper terminals and the right colours. No extra cost, just time, it takes a good while to unbolt then bolt up rectifier on these V35s as they’re all squeezed into very inaccessible spaces. I think that it also shows that often these pesky electrical issues just require time and concentration to resolve. Anyway, really, many thanks to all of you who helped with advice , it’s a great place to be able and come and get help/encouragement when these issues come up. 

It all starts up on the button and charges perfectly, so job done - just got to clean the carbs now. Here are some pics….










Posted By: Richard Hyatt
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2020 at 21:17
Well done.
Yes time, patience and slowly working through stuff.


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2020 at 21:56
Great result down to dogged perseverance Thumbs Up

CHRIS



-------------
you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza
Honda CB77 project



Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2020 at 22:53
It doesn't help when some previous owner has replaced wires with just one colour.

-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2020 at 10:14
Almost as bad is when they do as advocated by some and use 7 core trailer wire where the colours bear no resemblance to original.

-------------
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958-ish Greeves/Triumph in progress


Posted By: c13pep
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2020 at 14:52
I have to stick my hand up here  and admit to occasionally doing wiring repairs and using whatever is to hand including same coloured wire for different connections. It usually is a temporary repair to get a bike going but sometimes life gets in the way and `temporary` becomes `permanent` when I`ve managed to forget all about itConfusedConfusedConfused .
Never used trailer wire though but there`s still time I supposeOuch
This old age is not all its cracked up to beLOL

CHRIS


-------------
you can`t have any fun in a straight line

Monza
Honda CB77 project



Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2020 at 16:45
I'll make a note.......

-------------
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958-ish Greeves/Triumph in progress



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