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Nuts, and how not to lose them

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TooJuicy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote TooJuicy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nuts, and how not to lose them
    Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 11:49
I seen a couple of threads mentioning the use of spring (or split) washers and lock (or Jam) nuts. These were commonly found on my bikes in the 1970s but are now widely recognised as unreliable at best, if not plain useless.

Here is a link to a NASA report on keeping stuff attached, prepared in 1990 but still valid.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19900009424

I'm no professional spanner person so it's easy to be out of date.


Tony


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iansoady View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iansoady Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 12:06
Interesting read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 13:45
Yes indeed.


Personally I cannot ever remember something using a split spring washer or toothed lock washer coming undone.

Depends on the quality of the item of course, as with all things.



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iansoady View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iansoady Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 14:06
I always use the split spring washers on Amal carb fixings on British bikes. Just tighten them till the spring is compressed, no more. The sharp edge digs into the nut and the flange and they don't come undone.

I do hate those serrated ones however which never seem to do much.

I've heard good things about nord-lock but never used them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 17:02
It's rocket science, so I must be an utter fool !

Split washers work for me, where temperature doesn't allow Nylocks. Saying they're useless is BS !

Solid bushing inserts preferable to coil repair, not for sparkplugs !  I've had not end of grief with inserts coming out with the plug. At that point you're screwed because the plug hole will only accept an identical insert, even less likely to stay put second time around.
I then had to turn my own inserts with a collar, fit from inside after machining a hollow for said collar Angry

I lockwire drainplugs and level plugs for peace of mind.

Nord-lock looks a bit like the OEM Guzzi head bolt washers  on my T3.



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TooJuicy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TooJuicy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 19:08
NASA is only reporting what it found through testing.

The report doesn't claim that fasteners fitted with spring washers etc will loosen, only that various locking devices provide little or unreliable resistance to the fastener loosening. If however the fasteners were appropriately preloaded initially then the seemingly decorative value of some lock systems is moot since the fastener is generally unlikely to loosen anyway. I have fitted many fasteners with spring washers that have not undone, it doesn't follow that necessarily the spring washers were of any use.

I have heard positive reports of Nord-locks on Mechanical Engineer forums. I've never used it myself.

Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 21:08
As I said it sounds foolish to argue with an author who seems to be a genuine authority.

He says spring washers are "useless". Actually there seems to be a debate about that, much of it referring to that one article, and not everyone being so final.
A bike uses many small diameter fasteners that are not tightened like a conrod cap or cylinder head to a given torque with high quality fasteners.
It's hard to believe that millions of spring washers were for years fitted by delusional mechanics.

Likewise his dismissal of wire thread inserts where space allows the solid version sounds academic.
Enough to wonder if he ever actually screwed things together himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red leader one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 19:20
Or he might have a screw/fastener loose himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 14:02
Nylock nuts seem to have replaced the older split nuts which locked very well at any temperature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iansoady Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 14:23
I was never very keen on those split ones as they tend to damage the male thread. You can now get high temperature nyloc.
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 14:34
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Nylock nuts seem to have replaced the older split nuts which locked very well at any temperature.


Could that be because Nylocks are cheaper than the "Aerotight" type?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theoneandonly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 20:39
remember NASA doesn't deal with rust .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken-Guzzibear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 20:47
There is a fair bit of difference in the vibration and operating conditions of a bike, especially a Guzzi to a space vehicle thet NASA use that said many moan about WD40, THAT is what they at NASA used to keep Atlas rockets rust free on the pads at the Cape, which in Florida are in high humidity on a salt marsh the air is very salty ..... and humidity is way above what we experience here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 06:10
Nasa did miracles, also got it horribly wrong on a few occasions.

Some engineer's enthusiasm for Velcro was a main contribution to the Apollo 1 fire disaster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saultrader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 10:32
Most of the big diesels that I worked on didn't have a single washer anywhere on the engine although this sign was liberally posted around the works.


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