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NORGE ELECTRICS.

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Dave P. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 18:04
I met a chap today at a funeral who was aware of my interest in Guzzis. He has a 2006 1200cc Norge and asked my opinion regarding an electrical problem. I told him that modern electronics was not my forte but listened anyway.

With the ignition turned on the dash goes through its start up procedure as it should and all is well. However, the neutral lamp does not come on once the initialising is completed and the bike wont start. Not a click from the relay (familiar ???) nor anything else.
He has had the dash and the ECU checked out by a Dutch specialist company who have pronounced them fit and well. He has replaced the neutral switch but the lamp still doesn't light up. My suspicion is that the neutral switch isn't earthing so neither will the starter relay, this based on older Guzzi electrics so it may be irrelevant. I've suggested earthing the neutral cable against the gearbox casting to see if the lamp lights up but after that I'm a bit lost because I've no idea what more may be involved with modern electrics.

Any suggestions chaps?
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borderer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote borderer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 19:02
Could be the earth that lives behind the starter motor. Battery voltage. These models need a Threshold Voltage to actuate the starter. The dash can run through its sequence but unless there are sufficient volts nothing else will happen. you can run a feed direct to the starter solenoid which may stert it if the ignition/ fuel injection is working. also worth reseating the big fuses under the seat. The neutral lamp may be as you say an indicator of a fault in that circuit and can be bypassed with a a jumper on the side stand and pulling the clutch in. (it should start in gear with the clutch in)
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Brian UK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 21:38
My bet is a bad connection between the neutral light switch and the ECU. I suppose it could also be a connection between the ECU and dash, but that's Canbus. However worth checking all the pins on those connectors are clean, and have been sprayed with contact cleaner.

I had a problem with the dash appearing to be dead, again turned out to be a bad connector under the front of the tank.

If the neutral light is not on it won't start, that means the dash isn't seeing an earth on that circuit. If the fault ison the wire somewhere, touching the switch connector to the frame won't help.

And starting in gear with the clutch in does also depend on that working too, again mine didn't and that also was a connector, not the switch.


Edited by Brian UK - 22 Sep 2021 at 21:43
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Dave P. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 22:15
Thanks chaps, I will pass that information on to the owner and wish him luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2021 at 22:50
It's that green stuff, gets in everywhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin.O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2021 at 21:21
Good evening chaps. 
Firstly thanks to Dave for posting the detail of the Norge electrical issues, introducing me to the forum, and taking the time to listen yesterday.
Thus far I have removed the ECU and the dash, shipped to Carmo electronics in Holland for testing and they pronounced them OK. I refitted the ECU and dash after using contact cleaner on the plugs and cleaning the earth for the ECU.
I then replaced the neutral switch and washer. All fuses have been removed , checked and cleaned ( this was the first job! ) and no faults found.
I booked the bike into a local Guzzi dealer  ( with a 3 week lead time ) though they proclaimed they were too busy to look at the bike when I tried to progress the job 3 days after delivering the bike to them. They did have time to drain half the fuel tank which was full upon delivery!

I have cleaned the connections on the starter motor this evening and still have the same problem. I have put the battery on a C-tek charger and will see if the voltage is the cause of the problem, so fingers crossed but I am starting to believe there is something in the loom, and this job is far beyond my pay grade.
I am persevering with the bike as it only has 13,000 miles on the clock and 2 owners, and is cosmetically very good.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow evening .Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2021 at 21:48
Martin, can you start at the beginning.
What happens when you try to start?
You said the neutral light is not lighting. First of all have you made certain the box really is in neutral? Guess why I ask this. I once spent a couple of happy hours tracing a non-starter for this reason.
If the neutral light is not on, then the start proceedure will be inhibited.
But you should still be able to start if the clutch is pulled in.
This assumes the clutch switch is good, and with good connections to the rest of the loom. I had a problem on mine and found a bad connection on the wire to the loom, alongside the steering head.
Now I don't know if it is one piece of wire from the neutral switch to the ECU, or whether there is a connector. If there is, then that would be one possible culprit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin.O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2021 at 18:55
Hi Brian

Just checked the bike and can report the following;-
Bike is in neutral.
Turn on ignition, all lights illuminate on dash then go out leaving only the ABS ( yellow ) and warning triangle  ( red ) together with the ECU unplugged symbol.
Press starter button - nothing.
Pull in clutch and press starter - nothing.
Put side stand down - no warning lights on dash.
Voltage reading on dash is 12.0 - 12.1

Go to menu - diagnosis- enter code
ECU errors -  doesn't  show 01-09, all other show no fault
Dashboard errors 05 M shows as an error.
Deleted errors from memory , then turned off ignition. Turn on ignition, check for errors and none found.

,maybe as simple as a faulty battery and a side stand switch - any thoughts gratefully received!

Martin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2021 at 23:13
You hadn't mentioned you had the ECU unplugged symbol up too.
Is the short earth wire from the ECU correctly and firmly attached to the frame?
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin.O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 08:39
Hi Brian

The short earth lead from the ECU to the frame was cleaned and tightened when the ECU was re-installed.

I used contact cleaner on the plugs to the dash and ECU before reconnecting, as they are pain to reach!

The ECU unplugged symbol was the first sign of the issue. I asked various Guzzi people in the UK and was told a new ECU was approx £900 and unavailable. I spoke with a couple of people specialising in ECU repairs and they both pointed me towards Carmo Electronics in Holland. I spoke with Carmo and they said it may be the dash, so I sent the dash and ECU for test, and they pronounced both fine.

I initially thought this was an ECU problem, but then realised there was no neutral light and so replaced the switch and checked the connection. I have since realised that the side stand warning light does not illuminate either, so starting to think there is an earth / switch problem which is common to the neutral switch / side stand?

Not sure if any of this helps, as I still don't understand why the ECU has been pronounced OK and I still have the unplugged symbol?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 09:54
That unplugged symbol often comes up if that short earth is not making a good contact.
The only other reason is a problem with the multi pin plug on the back of the dash. That could cause all your issues.
The neutral switch earths to the gearbox case so nothing in common with the sidestand switch which uses an earth common to several other relays.
Have you got the wiring diagram? These switches are items 32 & 34.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 09:57
Are you able to check if there is any voltage on the neutral switch terminal with the ignition switched on?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote c13pep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 11:13
Did we not have a situation on the previous CARC dash thread where a dash was pronounced healthy but when replaced the problem was solved. Seem to recollect that it may have been something to do with the testing procedure used by the company doing it.

CHRIS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 11:45
If I remember correctly, that was a UK company, this was done by Carno in Holland, and they do have an excellent reputation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martin.O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 20:09
Good evening Gentlemen
Just changed the battery for a known "good" unit though still shows 12.1 - 12.2V, results are the same.
The plug on the dash was checked and treated to contact cleaner, so not sure what else I can do with this?
You may have already gathered that electrics / electronics are not my strong suit, so it seems that I have run out of talent / options for this bike! Any suggestions for somebody who can plug in the OBD, check continuities etc would be my next step - any ideas gratefully received...
Regards, Martin

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