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Falcone
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    Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 03:07
My 04 Cal Touring blew a tranny seal and oil soaked the clutch 4 years ago.  I finally got around to replacing it.  No problems there.  But when I fired it up it wouldn't idle.  I then noticed the throttle position sensor wasn't plugged in.  I plugged it in and all was well.  For a while.  I hopped on and rode to the gas station to gas it up.  I barely made it the block back home before it got progressively weaker and quit all together in my driveway.  Clutch felt real good BTW.

Good spark, fuel flow out of the tank is good.  For some reason the fuel isn't getting through the injectors.   I made sure the injectors weren't transposed.  But it wouldn't have run as long as it did if they were.

I find the factory manual to be rather sketchy on the fuel system and my copy of Guzziology is from 2000. 

I swapped all the relays and the ecu from a known good bike with negative results.  A shot of starting fluid got it running long enough to burn that out.  So I'm convinced that it's not getting fuel.

Please! If anyone has any insight on this problem Give me your advise.
Marty
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Tris View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 07:07
If its been stood for 4 years I'd suspect scabby fuel and/or crud in the injectors which is why it ran for a bit and then gave up

Can you pull the injectors and turn it over to see if fuel squirts out?

If it doesn't I'd send them out for cleaning

Tris




Edited by Tris - 07 Sep 2018 at 09:51
2005 Breva 1100
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Falcone
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roadpounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 13:52
Thanks Tris.  That sounds like a distinct possibility.  I'll give it a try.

Marty
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rapheal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapheal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 11:24
can you hear the pump running ?
have you replaced the fuel filter, it can clog with the junk from the bottom of the tank
also open the fuel cap to ensure air is getting in
and check the two hoses that run from the filler cap, they may well be blocked
one lets air in the other lets water out
also if you get it running put some fuel cleaner through the tank to clean the muck out
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Falcone
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roadpounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 19:53
Thanks for your input Rapheal, but I'm way past that in the diagnosis.  I ran the fuel pump and found good flow from the tank.  Running through the test cycle yielded about 2 ounces.  If I use starting fluid it will run until it burns that out.  I have swapped the injectors with those from a known running bike that I have been riding daily for the past 4 years.  This yielded negative results.  The most improvement I got was a few feeble attempts at firing. 
Marty
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapheal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2018 at 20:43
try this
disconnect the battery
remove all the fuses, test each one
also clean the fuses and the sockets and spray them with WD40
also check the switch on the sidestand
and take a look at the wiring to the kill switch, give it a squirt with WD40 and operate it a few times
next thing under the seat someplace is a bank angle sensor, this cuts the fule if the bike lays down, pop it out and check it with a multimeter sometimes damp gets in and corrodes the terminals
its only a ball that sits on a set of sockets
also did you isolate the battery before plugging the sensor in ?
perhaps leaving it without a battery connect for a while will allow it to reset to the origional programme
also run a multimeter across the connections on the ignition switch and check the section of wiring harness around the headstock
I take the air filter is clean and not obstructed
also have you replaced the fuel with fresh petrol
it goes off after a few months
beware of taking too much apart to look for a simple fault you can end up going round in circles



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roadpounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2018 at 00:41
try this
//disconnect the battery
remove all the fuses, test each one//

Already checked all fuses and relays

//also clean the fuses and the sockets and spray them with WD40//

I'm hesitant to use WD40 for this or on anything mechanical.  WD40 is NOT a cleaning agent or a lubricant.  It is a water dispersant.  When the propellant evaporates it leaves a waxy residue behind that is not conductive or lubricating.  For this application I prefer dielectric grease.

//also check the switch on the sidestand//

If the sides stand switch failed open it would disable the starter and the fuel pump.

//and take a look at the wiring to the kill switch, give it a squirt with WD40 and operate it a few times//

I've ruled out an ignition problem since there is good spark, timing is on and the engine will run on starting fluid.

//next thing under the seat someplace is a bank angle sensor, this cuts the fule if the bike lays down, pop it out and check it with a multimeter sometimes damp gets in and corrodes the terminals
its only a ball that sits on a set of sockets//

This bike has no bank angle sensor.

//also did you isolate the battery before plugging the sensor in ?
perhaps leaving it without a battery connect for a while will allow it to reset to the origional programme//

That's worth a try.

//also run a multimeter across the connections on the ignition switch and check the section of wiring harness around the headstock//

I've ruled out wiring since all of the bikes electrics work and it will run as long as some kind of fuel is introduced. ie. starting fluid.

//I take the air filter is clean and not obstructed//

As long as I had the bike down for a clutch I decided to put a new air filter in.

//also have you replaced the fuel with fresh petrol
it goes off after a few months//

It actually ran reasonably well on 4 year old gas until I put fresh gas in. I knew the old gas still had a reasonable amount of volatility since I've been siphoning it from the tank to run my lawnmower.  I rode it to the gas station on the old gas to fill it with new.  That's when the problem started.  I have no reason to question the new gas as it came from a station that I regularly frequent.  At any rate there is fresh gas in the tank now. 

One other thing.  I did a resistance check on the injectors and they showed 17.2 ohms, exactly on spec.  Also I hooked the bike to a computer and ran the tune up software for my bike and did a check on the injectors.  The injectors passed the computer test.


Edited by Roadpounder - 09 Sep 2018 at 03:08
Marty
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2018 at 09:12
So it appears you have no fuel coming out of the injectors.
As there seems to be fuel getting to them from the pump the problem lies in these injectors or their control.
Either they are blocked or they are not being told to open.
With specialised equipment you can check the pulses driving the injectors, but you need an oscilloscope.
A faulty injection relay would also cause this.
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rapheal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2018 at 10:21
I am surprised that it lacks a bank angle sensor, it might be called a knock or collision sensor
its a legal requirement on all fuel injected vehicles
in the case of a collision a fuel line could sever and the high pressure pump keeps going and starts a conflagration
unless the american market does not require one, but with your litigation laws I dont think so
quite often when looking for a problem its something silly and you can go overboard looking for more complex faults, and create other by disturbing things
I once spent several hours looking at a Honda that refused to start
it was a favour to settle a family argument
father and son were not speaking
Father was a Senior engineer for a high tech engine company
son was at college studying art
Son had filled up Honda CB175 from cans in garage, bike ran for a while then refused to run again
highly skilled  father had reduced the machine to parts and ended up putting it all back together with new gaskets
still no life

Stupid here lifts the tank cap and sniffs, Diesel fuel
Mummys range Rover was Diesel

empty tank out drain carbs
fill with fresh petrol
two sets of eyes watching me
the bloody thing turned over spat and kicked but refused to start
I get the impression its all my fault
so I check the bleeding obvious
know it all engineer had put the leads to the coil on the wrong way round, sparks 180 degrees out
clean and gap points check advance retard , swap wires
purred into life
I think they are laughing about it now


Second bike same family
Older brother
MZTS250
running perfectly I had just delivered it to him from the seller after road testing it
off boy wonder goes to some smelly hippy music festival in somerset
on way back bike karks it
all my fault as I road tested it, it ran perfectly had an owner who paid a motorcycle mechanic to maintain it and kept it clean
recovered machine in my works van
then the admission it was smoking heavily and he thinks the crank seal has failed and that why the owner was selling it, father nodding head sagely
i walk over to bench pull out paperwork, receipt for exchange crank new mains and oil seals 3k ago
I ask idiot if he has altered anything
oh I topped up the gearbox oil
why ??
well it was a bit low when I looked in the filler cap !!!!
on this bike you remove a screw and check for level, he removed the filler screw
how did you top it up
Oh i got a container and poured it in then I shook it several times until the bubbles all came out and filled it to the top

FFS !!!!
I drained the gearbox. 3 times as much oil as specified
engine out new seals, runs like a dream
he is a highly skilled engineer now
working on aircraft design, luckily a long long way from me !

my old man is ex reme, taught me to check the silly things first ,he  was an armourer and toolmaker by trade, and he always had the gift of sitting back and questioning everything even the obvious

I dont have his skill though

my guzzi has been running rough on one cylinder, and the heated bars kept cutting out in traffic
I sent it to Tony my Mechananic
faulty cell in the battery is causing the EFI to play up at low revs, likewise the grips
new battery road test now perfect, and I am an electrician !


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roadpounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2018 at 13:57
Thanks Brian.  That's the problem. Fuel is getting to the injectors but not through them. I tried injectors from a known running bike with no success.  I swapped all the relays from the running bike, still nothing.  It's like the computer isn't talking to the injectors.  I even tried swapping the computer.  I'm totally flummoxed by this. Confused
Marty
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2018 at 20:46
@rapheal I enjoyed those stories enormously! LOL



"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 10:11
You need to be able to see if there is a signal getting to the injectors from the ECU when cranking. It could just be a bad connection somewhere.
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roadpounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 13:51
Thanks Brian
I just swapped out the last component in the system, the tps.  No go. The only thing left that I can think of is to trace out the wires.  It has to be something common to both injectors.  The computer (desktop) test shows the injectors and tps to be good. Since both injectors are not working it sort of rules out the wires from the ECU to the injectors. I haven't found one yet, but I'm thinking there is a sensor on the engine somewhere that tells the computer when to fire the injectors.  Is that the component mounted in front of the left cylinder?

Thanks for your help.
Marty
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 16:57
There is a crank position sensor but not certain where it is on your model. Could be on the clutch housing.
But it also controls the ignition.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roadpounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 19:07
Thanks again Brian:
I found the timing sensor.  It is mounted just forward of the left cylinder.  I removed it looking for any obvious problem.  It looked OK. I also ran an ohm meter on it and got a .698 reading on the 200 ohm scale.  I also checked the one on my other bike and got .70, an insignificant difference. I haven't yet tried swapping them out.  I can't find any spec on the resistance.  The factory manual relies heavily on their Axion diagnostic computer, which I don't have. Do you or anyone else know if the timing sensor also regulates the injectors? If not there has to be something somewhere to tell the ECU when to fire the injectors, and the problem has to be something common to both injectors.  I can't imagine the odds against both injectors failing simultaneously, and independently.  Unless I misunderstand the injectors and the ignition need to fire roughly 360 degrees out of phase with each other, with the injector firing around the the beginning of the intake stroke and the ignition firing slightly before TDC on the compression stroke.

Marty
Marty
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