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Cali 1100i crank and flywheel sensors

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Dunders View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 11:43
This from the 'Alternative Parts' section:

Originally posted by Ken-Guzzibear Ken-Guzzibear wrote:

 you DO need to keep the Guzzi alloy spacers as they are important to maintain the factory gap

I'm re-visiting the fuelling of the Cali 1100i *again* (runs rich, 35mpg).

I had the crank and flywheel sensors off the other day: no spacers.  Anyone know what the factory gap(s) should be and how to measure them?  How crucial is this?

Thanks!

Paul
....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 NF, '73 V7 Sport, '75 T3 (950), '95 Cali 1100i, '05 Breva 750.
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DavieL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavieL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 18:56
Hi, I don't actually know the answer but I never let that stop me! I think you could use a depth mic or the arse end of a vernier caliper to accurately measure the depth to the flywheel and the length of the sensor. Then you just need to know the required gap and you can work out the shim size. Mine is out at the moment, I expect someone on here will know the required gap size but if you don't get an answer I could measure mine if that helps Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 22:26
The air gap is important. Don't know what it is on the cali, but the one on my Norge is 0.7 - 0.9 mm.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018 at 12:12
Thanks, both.

Next week's work, I think: both the T3 and the NF need a little work,andI'll get that out of the way before I return to the ongoing frustration!

Guzzi life...
Paul
....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 NF, '73 V7 Sport, '75 T3 (950), '95 Cali 1100i, '05 Breva 750.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dunders/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keef Mayhem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 18:04
Hi,
This manual covers the early weber injection on Cali's :)
Page 13 has some air gap figures
If its running rich check the sensor resistance values, I had an air temp sensor that was over 20c out and the bike was doing about 15mpg and impossible to start once warm.
If I remember right its a sensor from a Fiat panda and costs about £25 from a car parts supplier if needed Cool

http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf


Edited by Keef Mayhem - 15 Oct 2018 at 18:09
So many bikes, so little time !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 21:22
Thanks, Keef,

I had seen the EFI manual but must have missed the info I needed.  That will help a lot.

When I bought the bike it was doing about 15 to the gallon, which is one of the reasons it was cheap.  I used Guzzidiag, and found that the air temp sensor was shot.  A quick replacement and I thought all would be well.  Certainly 35mpg is an improvement, but I'm not there yet.  

I bought a Fiat temp sensor from eBay and checked all three thermistor sensors against each other, and all seems to be well, so I have to look elsewhere.  Someone mentioned putting a resistor in series with the ATC, which I'll look into.  It seems a bodge, but if it works...  

I asked whether the air gap on the crank and flywheel sensors was crucial, and the consensus seems to be yes.  I can't see that they will effect the mpg (though i'm happy to proved wrong), but I can see that they may be the cause of the less-than-smooth running at 85+.

A friend who is into cars suggested checking the timing chain: if it has been replaced one tooth out it may be a cause: he's had this in a car, he says.  I would have thought that any problems in that area would be fairly major...

All food for thought!


Paul
....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 NF, '73 V7 Sport, '75 T3 (950), '95 Cali 1100i, '05 Breva 750.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dunders/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 08:42
Have you checked the engine temp sender? Does it actually make contact with the engine?

One of the most common causes of poor fuel consumption is the engine temp sender has an air gap when fitted. Take it out and put some heat conductive paste (or coppaslip) in the hole before screwing in again.
With an air gap the sender never reads real engine temp, so tells the ECU the engine is cold, causing the ECU to inject more fuel. That temp sender has far more effect on mixture than the air temp sender.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 08:45
Both air and engine temp senders have lower resistance as they heat up, and it's not linear. Putting a resistor in series with the sender will tell the ECU the temperature is lower, thus use more fuel.
Most manuals have a chart of resistance against temperature.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 09:45
The design of the ETS in the (my) 1100i is such that the thermistor just pokes through the rocker cover by a couple of mm and sits in free air.  If I fill the gap round it with copper grease or similar it will just run out...

My bad on the resistor: you had posted last year suggesting a restore in parallel This old brain was 'seeing' a resistor in parallel but wrote 'series'.  It's me age...


Local tuner suggested I took he top off the air filter - of there's too much fuel going in, add some air.  Without a dyno to work with this seems hit-and-miss...

Paul
....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 NF, '73 V7 Sport, '75 T3 (950), '95 Cali 1100i, '05 Breva 750.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dunders/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 10:04
Ah yes, there are two differnet setups for the ETS, you have the other one, sorry.

Assuming the air fiter element is clean, I can't see how removing the top of the air box is going to help.

I did post about adding a resistor in parallel , this does make the ECU think the engine is hotter, particularly in the warm up period. It has almost no effect once the engine is up to operating temperature.

Have you any way to check the ETS resistance when the engine is at normal operating temperature? Then at least you would know if it's sensing correctly.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 20:40
Thanks Brian.  I can add a resistor, no problem.  Do you know what value is recommended, and what's the the most sensible placement?  I don't like to re-invent the wheel..

 GuzziDiag reports what seem sensible temperatures.  Can't remember the figures off-hand, but they were commensurate with some i saw in a 'tuning' guide on the net.  I'm still wrestling with a simple carb problem on the NF, so I won't get the Cali out till that's sorted.  I'll report back with actual figures then.
Paul
....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 NF, '73 V7 Sport, '75 T3 (950), '95 Cali 1100i, '05 Breva 750.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dunders/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 22:02
Trying to remember what I fitted to the Norge.

Working it out.
With 10k at 0 degrees ECU sees 12, @ 20 Degrees it sees 28, @ 40 it sees 45

With 4k @ 0 degrees ECU sees 25, @ 20 degrees it sees 35, @ 40 it sees 50

With 2k @ 0 degrees ECU sees 40, @20 degrees it sees 45, @40 it sees 55.

At operating temperature it makes almost no difference. So this only helps during the first few miles while warming up. But if the engine temp sensor is consistently reading low it affects normal running and then you should check why first of all.

Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2018 at 12:07
Thanks for the calculations.  I would have had to go back to first principles: A-level physics form 1967!


The only things I haven't checked or renewed by now are a) the crank and flywheel sensors - they must be working (I assume naively) or the bike wouldn't run, and b) the actual (? how ?) engine temperature against the measured temp.  And even if the sensor reads low, how do I know that this isn't compensated in the look-up tables for this particular arrangement (I know: it's a Guzzi.  Likely one-size-fits-all).

The ECU is labelled correctly, and hadn't been opened till I looked inside last year.  No obvious problems inside.  The trim pot registers values on Guzzidiag when tweaked, so I assume that it hasn't been broken, as some dire prognostications on the net claim will happen if it's run beyond the stop (I'm not convinced: my experience of multi-turn pots is that there's a clutch to avoid just such damage).

Still thinkin'......
Paul
....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 NF, '73 V7 Sport, '75 T3 (950), '95 Cali 1100i, '05 Breva 750.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dunders/
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