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Difficulty fitting tyres on "snowflakes."

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ReggieV View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 19:52
I have the alloy "snowflake" wheels on two of my Guzzi's and every time I go for tyres there is always some sort of difficulty. Is it my tyre fitters that are under-par, or is it the same for everybody?
 
In the past, I've had problems after a few months with tyres fitted tubeless not holding air for long, and so as the wheel wasn't perfect where the valve fits i.e. difficult to seal, tubes were recommended. Apart from having to have three attempts to un-trap the tube all seemed well. A few months later the tyre again started to lose air. So the tyre was taken off and it appears the tube was fitted twisted and so rubbed through. A new tube was fitted, inflated and deflated several times to try and ensure that it wasn't twisted again.......and all is well up to now.
 
Today, two new tyres were fitted without tubes to the other bikes wheels. A lot of head scratching followed from the fitter trying to get a valve that would fit. Apparently, the hole is small, the depth of the wheel is deep and the inside of the wheel is dished along the length of the wheel, i.e. not machined with a flat circular area, all very different to modern wheels.  Eventually, a valve was found that seemed to do the job, bolted from the outside.
 
Then several attempts were made to get the tyres to seat properly...inflating to 85 psi deflating.....more soap.....re-inflating repeat, repeat, repeat. Even now after several attempts by the fitter, the seating is not quite perfect as the raised line on the front tyre that runs around the edge of the rim still dips in near the valve about 1mm or so.
 
I realise that a modern tyre on a modern wheel would have been fitted quickly (as one was whilst mine were being fitted), but do all tyre fitters struggle with the "snowflake" wheels. I'm starting to get anxious now when I go for new tyres.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jezguz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 21:08
I've just had some BT45's put onto mine, the tyre guy had to take them to 120 psi and it took several attempts to get them somewhere near right. I don't think he'll be quite so keen to do Guzzi wheels in the future going by some of the language that was being muttered. You're not alone having problems with the tyres.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dukedesmo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 21:14
I had a pig of a job changing tyres on my LM2. 

Recently I started doing my own tyre changes on bikes and find it fairly easy on the 'normal' stuff but the Guzzi tyres were an absolute arse to do. 

Started with the rear and did manage to get it done myself but it was a real swine both to take off the old and fit the new, made worse because I trapped/split the tube and had to do it all again. It then took huge air pressure, heat, BFI (Brute Force and Ignorance) and loads of tyre soap to seat the tyre into the wheel properly.

I had to admit defeat with the front as I just couldn't get the old one off. I thought about cutting it off but that wouldn't help with getting the new one on, so I took it to my local bike shop who has a machine to do it - it stalled the machine and took 2 blokes to force-assist it round and then had the same problem seating the tyre as the rear - Bike shop geezer said it was the worst one he'd ever done and would be happy to never see another like it.  

I think the problem is a combination of narrow wheels in thick rough-finished ally and inflexible tyres meaning the tyre doesn't slide on it easily.

Maybe other tyre brands are easier/softer? Mine are Pirelli Sport Demon. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ranton_rambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 21:24
My tyre man hates them! He also does tyres for Nigel from NBS so is horribly familiar with Guzzi wheels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 22:07
On my 650 my tyre fitter is not happy , on my 750 I did it myself and it was a nightmare to do but later had to take it to another dealer who said that was a pain to do .
GSXR1100 L ,Moto Guzzi .750xpa,.1100 sport,1100 sport corsa rider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReggieV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 23:18
Thanks for the replies.
So it would seem that these wheels (Snowflakes) are difficult to get the tyres seated on, more so than a typical chromed rimmed and alloy rimmed spoked wheel, and so it seems that the tyre fitters that I use are not under-par as it were. My apologies for doubting them. EmbarrassedEmbarrassed
 
Jezguz, "120 psi" to seat a tyre.....wow, I don't think I'd dare take my tyre up to that pressure even if my compressor was capable of achieving such a pressure.
 
As I intend to keep at least one of my bikes with "snowflakes" fitted for the long term, I suppose I'll just have to get used to the periodical tyre fight.
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 23:50
Those wheels are not suitable for tubeless tyres. I wanted tubeless one time, and my local bike shop guy who I've known for years, said no way, the wheels are not tubeless type. Got to have inner tubes.

These wheels have shallow grooves at the edges of the rims which trap the tyre beads (I'm sure on purpose) and which make getting the beads on and off the rims an absolute complete piggin' barsteward job. Last time my local bike shop mechanic nearly gave up! Ouch


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2017 at 21:28
Originally posted by Mike H Mike H wrote:

Those wheels are not suitable for tubeless tyres. I wanted tubeless one time, and my local bike shop guy who I've known for years, said no way, the wheels are not tubeless type. Got to have inner tubes.

These wheels have shallow grooves at the edges of the rims which trap the tyre beads (I'm sure on purpose) and which make getting the beads on and off the rims an absolute complete piggin' barsteward job. Last time my local bike shop mechanic nearly gave up! Ouch




Totally agree!! Got to a specialist tyre shop who will have the right equipment and expertise. Forget well known branded shops who probably have the equipment but not the expetise. Forget your local LBS who have the expertise but not the equipment. Check out a time served tyre shop who only do tyres.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jools Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2017 at 18:35
The tyres on my G5 fitted with cast wheels were similarly more challenging than my other bikes, but by no means impossible.

The trick for fitting them at home with minimal difficulty I found to be as follows;

1). The tyre beads can be persuaded off the 'ledges' by clamping the tyre in a vice and simply tightening. The beads will be displaced with no problem, and they can then be removed as normal;

2). Take some liquid soap and dilute 50:50 with water, and then liberally blather the tyre and wheel with the solution using a paintbrush;

3). Again, tyre levers used in the normal way will get the tyre onto the wheel (with the tube inside of course);

4). Remove the tube's valve internal (unscrew it with a valve cap with the integral 'tool'), as this will allow the tyre to inflate rapidly without restriction;

5). Crank your compressor up to 100psi (I tried 40, 60, and 80psi but the tyre simply wouldn't seat);

6). Connect the hose and release the pressure into the tyre/tube, which will 'pop' resoundingly into place on the rim. 

This is the first time I've changed the tyres on my Guzzi, and I reckon it took a couple of hours to get them both done from a standing start. The pressure used for seating the tyres might seem extreme, but it is only used very briefly remember.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ianboydsnr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2017 at 20:14
I have done quite a few tyres in my time, especially LM tyres,

Warm the tyre up, stick it in the airing cupboard or in the sun if you can find the sun,
New tube every time
Put a little air in the tube, just enough for it to hold shape, use a little talcum powder on the tube,
Fit tyre, using tyre soap,
Pump tyre up to 60 psi, leave it for 10 minutes, it won't seat all the way,
Pump up to about 85 90 psi and it should seat, if it doesn't, let down and pump up, repeat
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ReggieV View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReggieV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2017 at 22:01
Thanks for the additional info.
It looks as if 90/100 psi is one of the main requirements to get the tyres seated on these wheels plus of course tyre lube. I think that my compressor cuts at 80 psi, but I'll have a look tomorrow. When I fit my own tyres (not on the snowflakes yet) I always use tyre lube, but have never thought to use talc.
 
Also, I've never thought to take the valve out to get a more rapid inflation, but I have used the vice to displace the tyres from the rims.
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Edited by ReggieV - 30 Oct 2017 at 22:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 08:03
I've used Jools method and managed OK on the v50.  The SPIII had tubeless on similar rims, they were quite tight.
In fact, the older rims were so tight on the bead, makes me think they would accept a tubeless tyre.
I once had a puncture on the V50 and though there was a big hole in the tube, I managed to plug the cover temporarily and the pressure didn't drop.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 22:05
“trying to get a valve that would fit.” I’ve just remembered I think this is what primarily denotes whether a wheel is tubeless compatible or not, that a tubeless valve will fit. It’s about the valve hole. Because if it doesn’t fit properly it could be dangerous. On that basis my bike shop guy wouldn’t do it.
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 22:08
“It looks as if 90/100 psi is one of the main requirements to get the tyres seated on these wheels plus of course tyre lube.”

Pretty sure I might have destroyed a foot pump doing this, which was supposed to be good for 100 psi max., but apparently not good enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theone&onlymin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 07:47
Here's a thing or two.
Y'all know by now I've put over 30 pairs of tyres on my G5 and had a few roadside punctures along the way.
It used to be a lot easier to get the tyres to seat but then we were running tubed type tyres which didn't have a bead to seal the tyre to the rim.
The cast wheels ( which aren't snowflakes as they were the name for BMW wheels ) aren't designed to run tubeless hence finding a valve core may be difficult.
I ran a Spada as a second bike for a while a couple of years back. The previous owner didn't have tubes in and I had to regularly top up the pressure. Not so with a tube in it.

So my job for the tyre shop this morning is putting a 100/90 Lasertec on the front. Let them do it as it's the same price and a 10 minute job. But they do struggle sometimes nevertheless so they do.

Cheers
Min

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