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Click no Crank

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Paulsb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paulsb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2019 at 11:31
The diagram is from the back of the Haynes manual and also I have the original S3 handbook.

I can’t recall where the neutral wire goes but definitely not to the relay if that’s what you mean.

You have prompted a thought though as I took had the starter out to bench test it over the weekend and might have done something to the neutral connection. Something I will check tonight when I’m home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iansoady Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2019 at 15:28
Presumably the clutch switch interrupts the live side of the trigger connection (85 or 86) to the relay?


Edited by iansoady - 10 Apr 2019 at 15:32
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2019 at 20:45
Sounds like that's what it needs now, originally it interrupted the 'live' supply to pin 30, which originally came via the ignition switch.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paulsb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2019 at 11:33
I checked neutral switch was ok. Oddly, the neutral light was off. Took the dash out, changed globe and socket and bingo. What a PITA! Might be a sticky switch, we’ll see.

By the way Brian, the neutral light wire on the S3 feeds through the main loom direct to the dash light.

So the bike still starts in gear without having to pull the clutch in which it shouldn’t be able to. I have drawn up a diagram. This is what the standard relay wiring should be which requires pulling in the clutch to start. I was getting the click and no crank problem so I made the modification and put a direct line to battery + and moved the brown fuse box wire to 86.  From my basic understanding, I can only guess that because the power is direct to terminal 30, it has now made the clutch cable switch redundant because power is going direct to the secondary circuit in the relay. 

I need to improve my understanding on relays...




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris950s Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2019 at 11:55
I think the red wire from contact 30 direct to the battery is a mistake, in my opinion this should be fused as it is the main feed to the starter solenoid, also the starter will now work when the ignition is off, I just hope you don't park it anywhere near small boys with sticky little inquisitive fingers that like pressing buttons. 

The brown wire from contact 30 to the cut out switch was the live feed to the cut out switch, that then from there fed contact 86. You now have 2 feeds to the cut out switch, one from contact 30 and one from contact 86 so you have not only by-passed the cut out switch but have connected the battery direct to the cut out switch which will be live even when the ignition is off. 

In my opinion you should remove the wires from the cut out switch on the original diagram and just connect contact 30 to contact 86.
Chris and Karen - Essex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paulsb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2019 at 14:28
Thanks chris. I confirmed my installation against Greg Bender’s installation for the relay for the S3. I also have just checked against a photo I took of the connections before I started the rebuild which corresponds to Greg’s article. I will no doubt spend another night in the shed and I’ll check if it starts. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris950s Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2019 at 15:31
I am not doubting Greg Bender's knowledge, but I would not have an un-fused feed to the starter motor relay direct from the battery, especially as the starter motor gets so much use. If a fuse pops you can get home, if the starter circuit burns out you won't. On top of that you have shown a live direct feed connected to the clutch cut out as there are two wires on contact 30. I hope you don't have any problems at the cut out switch end as it will be live, whatever the position of the ignition switch. I would not do it, and I certainly would not recommend anyone else to do it.
Chris and Karen - Essex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paulsb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2019 at 19:32
Sorry chris, not explained myself well. I confirmed the ‘standard wiring’ installation against Greg’s and my previous photo. I then got the click and no start so i did the modification which got the bike started. The new red wire to the battery has an inline 16A fuse which I should have added to the drawing. Guzziology says because its so short he doesn’t add one but I agree with your thinking and I still added a fuse, short or not. 

I have just tried to start with ignition off and no start, turn the key and only then she kicks over, so no problem with starting without a key. So everything functioning ok, just the bike starts without the clutch safety cutout switch not operating which I can live with. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2019 at 22:41
Not seen the diagram you have, but I assume the bike should not start if in gear unless the clutch is pulled in.
To get that you would have to have the neutral switch wired as the G5 in the feed to the start relay coil.
To get the clutch switch to override that it would have to be wired in parallel with the neutral switch, so that pulling the clutch still provides a path to the relay coil.

Oh, and I would always recommend a fuse in any direct feed from the battery. Though the risk is small.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glawster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 37 minutes ago at 12:30
Another starter motor review!
When I got my V7 Sport it had the classic "click no crank" symptoms.
When I rebuilt the bike I followed the recommended wiring mod and replaced the starter relay with a new one.  It improved the situation but did not eradicate it.
Next job was to have the starter motor refurbished, which certainly livened it up once it was spinning.
I also then found an additional issue where there was no solenoid click, but just a dimming of the warning lights when the starter was pressed.  As the battery was 5 years old I replaced it, but I was still getting this issue "low voltage" issue afterwards, unless the new battery was kept on a charger.
This week I think I've solved this issue.  The wire from the starter relay to the solenoid was the same gauge as I use for general bike wiring - 16A thin wall from Vehicle Wiring Products.  I didn't think I would need anything with a higher rating for powering the starter solenoid, but I replaced this wire with a heavier one.  I don't know the rating, but it's much thicker.  
The starter now seems to fire reliably and the solenoid is energised more quickly.
I feel a bit of a plonker, but I hadn't realized that 16A wire would not carry enough current.  So the question is, how much current should this wire be rated for?
1979 Guzzi T3 California
1973 Guzzi V7 Sport
1955 Guzzi Falcone Sport
2015 Triumph Tiger 800
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