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Cali 3 swing arm removal

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Thor_Rob View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Jul 2021 at 19:06
Hello everybody,
I'm in the process of stripping down Bertha and am thoroughly stuck. Please excuse my lack of technical language, here goes: I need to remove the swing arm in order to powder coat the frame (and the swing arm). On either side were large chrome domed nuts with a central hole, one of which was filled with a protector. Once these were removed, there are Allen bolt heads. These have been rounded by a PO and as such I am having great difficulty getting any further. Also I do not know exactly what I am doing! I know that there are bearing that will need to be changed. I have looked at owners' and workshop/maintenance manuals on 'The Old Tractor' but am still stumped.

Also, when trying to remove the brake discs, it seems that 5 of the Allen head bolts are also rounded. Does anybody have any recommendations on how to remove a rounded Allen head bolt. 

Thanks and best wishes,

El Clumsy Greaser
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Simond View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2021 at 22:17
Swinging arm pivots;  they are fine threads, with a shoulder and spigot.  I’ve just put mine back in, or I’d measure them for you, but the spigots are about 20mm diameter, and 15mm long.  They fit inside the taper roller bearings, the shoulders provide the lateral position/preload and the chromed covers are actually locknuts.  One of my pivots has a hex socket, the other has a screwdriver slot.  

If you have undone the chromed covers, the pivots should not be difficult to unscrew.  There should be around 6 or 7 mm of thread showing.   If they are difficult to move, you might have to sacrifice them, assuming you can buy replacements.  I can imagine a couple of potential solutions; 

* hacksaw a screwdriver slot, probably easiest and least damaging.
* drill a couple of holes and use a peg spanner, might be difficult to do well, but pivots will survive.
* Get the moles or stllsons on it
* hammer & chisel and try to tap them around

Possibly try some heat - hot air gun, also a really hard thump with a soft faced hammer might just jar them loose.

Re your rounded Allen bolts, you might be able to shift them with “easy-outs” which are like left handed taps.  Alternatively, drill the heads so they come off, and then grip the shanks with moles, etc.  Again, lots of heat before you start, as the aluminium will expand more than the steel - roughly twice as much - so heat will really help.  It’ll also help if the previous owner decided to slather everything in green Loctite.

Good luck!
Simon

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Brian UK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2021 at 22:42
I would guess the disc bolts will have loctite on the threads, mine did. The hex was also somewhat damaged.

I used a fine blowlamp flame on the head, eventually the loctite softened and the bolts then came out using an allen key.
If yours are still to badly rounded, you might find a torx 6 point key fits better.
Last resort, if you have one of those little Dremel type tools, grind a slot across the allen bolt head and try a big flat screwdriver.

Those bolts are easily replaceable, I used stainless button head ones.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Throwley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2021 at 08:02
For rounded Allens, the first thing I try is hammering a Torx bit/socket into the rounded aperture. 99% of the time this works - you can get a load of torque through this way and I guess the hammering jars things, too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote borderer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2021 at 10:58
+1 for Torx bit, I am sure that these were locktighted in place originally. Hot air gun would soften it enough to get them off. I would leave drilling out till last resort. The swing arm pivot bolts should be movable. It is CRUCIAL not to damage the thread in the frame. One thing that may work is if you can lay the bike on its side and make up a plasticine well round the nut. Fill with Coca Cola and leave for a day. The phosphoric acid will really clean out any corrosion. 
Good luck...... BTW have you got the front engine bolt out yet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor_Rob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2021 at 17:26
Hello, thank you for your suggestions. I have a couple of follow up questions:
(1) I have never used Torx bits before. To remove the rounded bolts, do you use the next size up Torx bit so that it cuts into the rounded hex hole in order to grip.
(2) I love the idea of using Coca Cola to remove corrosion, I certainly wouldn't drink it! Unfortunately if I lay the bike on its side the chiropractor's bill after lifting it back would bankrupt the restoration.
(3) This is the first time that I've heard about threads inside the frame. I had a Haynes manual for an earlier Tonti framed bike thinking that much would be the same mechanically. It sat on my workbench alongside Guzziology waiting for me to start. The day I started it disappeared, really. I have taken everything out of the garage and there is no sign of it. Do you chaps recommend a specific manual or it is all learnt via this forum and by making mistakes.

borderer - Thank you for asking, I managed to remove the bolt and am currently trying to prise the top frame away from the bottom rails. My current (cunning) plan is to attach the top frame to a roof spar using a cargo strap and lower the bike on the lift. Along with some grunting and cursing that should do it. 

Enjoy the ride (or sitting with a cup of tea looking at it in pieces)

Robert
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Brian UK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2021 at 17:55
You have to use a torx which fits very tightly into the hexagon, which is why you normally have to tap it in with a hammer.

You can find most manuals here.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote borderer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2021 at 14:34
Thats pretty much how I do it, I have a pulley system and just put a bit of tension on the frame, check everything is undone including the four bolts at the battery tray. with a bit of wiggling it should start to move. check and check again that there are no wires still connected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor_Rob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2021 at 16:53
Okay guys, I've mentioned previously that Bertha is my first Guzzi so as a newbie I expected some kind of initiation ritual. You've had your fun not telling me about the invisible bolts that hold the top of the frame to the bottom rails! I like a joke as much as the next guy but. . .

The lower parts of the top frame down tubes are an inch away from the bottom frame on both sides. The swing arm pivots on both sides are about 1/2 of an inch above the bottom frame rails. There is no connection between the top and bottom frame yet neither of them will budge any further. As the offside front downtube fouls against the barrel I realise that the frame needs to be angled to be removed, lifting the rear.
Please tell me that I don't have to remove the RHS barrel to remove the frame.

Cheers, Robert Confused

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Guzzished View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guzzished Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2021 at 17:30
I'm confused, ( not an unusual situation )Confused Confused
Any chance of some pictures ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guzzished Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2021 at 17:31
No, the barrels don't have to come off, you must be going haywire somewhere.
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Brian UK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2021 at 17:36
If you are trying to lift the frame off the engine from the rear, read this guide.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken-Guzzibear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2021 at 23:24
The frame is very much similar to the older Tonti frame Bottom frame rails fit at the front end where the frame joins an and the front engine bolt at the rear by another bolt bolt under gearbox but to lift the frame 4 bolts that are under the battery and bolt to gearbox, 

The front engine bolt needs loosening and greasing annually else it can seize as the front is exposed

The swing arm only needs wheel out and swing arm bolts BUT it is easier if you take out the bolts for the rear footrests 
The Older i Get, The Better I Was
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