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deltic View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 08:24
2013 v7 racer  my bike does not seem to like bp petrol anymore it feels a bit rough if i fill up at bp but is fine on anything else.no lambda sensors and a finbeu fitted to richen the mixture because i have megga s on.very strangeDisapprove
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken-Guzzibear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 10:35
May be the station bud we have a local Shell station that is well known for crap in the fuel , blocked my filter one time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobV7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 11:07
Best to buy fuel from a place that has a high turn over regardless of brand. Nothing wrong with petrol from Tesco or Sainburys apart from image. Lot of hype and bullsh*t around oil and fuel qualities. All have to conform to the same basic standards for very good reasons. Now watch the crap pour in!Evil Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 12:06
It never ceases to amase me that so many "keyboard experts" on bike forums sl*g off supermarket fuel.....do they really believe that Morrison's have their own refinery????  :-D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TooJuicy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 13:02
Originally posted by NickR NickR wrote:

.do they really believe that Morrison's have their own refinery????  :-D

no Morrisons do not own a refinery but that is not the issue in petrol . The question that affects consumers is Does Morrisons Have A Chemical Company & research centres?

The raw petroleum distillate bought ex-refinery will harm your engine, to prevent this companies develop chemical additive packages. These are added to the petrol when it is delivered and these dictate the performance of the fuel you are buying, which is why petroleum distillate can come from the same Shell, BP or Esso refinery yet be different at the branded petrol stations.

Morrisons will buy a fuel additive package from the oil & chemical companies to add to the raw distillate but the supermarket chooses which additives they wish to buy, not all additive package s cost the same or perform the same. Consequently the performance of the petrol in your engine depends on the Additives Buyer working for Morrisons & how much he is prepared to spend, regardless of who is refining the crude oil.

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Edited by TooJuicy - 15 Sep 2018 at 13:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobV7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 15:07
A basic cooking engine such as is fitted to the current Moto Guzzi V7 range hardly warrants an exotic blend of fuels, but some folks seem to think the more you pay the better it is. However as no one is asking me to pay their fuel bills it doesn't matter, and those oil companies really need the cash.LOL

Edited by BobV7 - 15 Sep 2018 at 15:11
V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jefrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 15:21
Dunno. Having had several bad experiences of cheap 'supermarket' petrol blocking injectors or filters, I stick to Shell VP or BP Ultimate. Not because they're higher RON but because they burn more cleanly. However there is one Shell locally that I won't use because they seem to have dirty tanks.
Every time I've been forced to use cheap fuel over the past years, in several different vehicles, I've been obliged to use RedEx and a couple of tankfuls of the good stuff to clear it out. 

One local forecourt owner told me his Shell VP goes into his tanks at over 100RON but because the volatiles evaporate the "99RON" is the minimum value. It can depend how long the fuel is in the forecourt tanks before sale, the fuel degrades. Forecourts are standardised drop-in designs, he has relatively small tanks and high turn-over.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vegas Pete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 17:22
(Rant alert!)
Oil companies are in a difficult position.  Their objective is to make money.  There are only two ways of increasing their profits.  The first is to raise the price.  This results in people using less fuel, so it pretty much balances out.  The second is to get people to use more fuel.  This becomes a bit tricky.  Even if they were to cut the price in half, in a month or two people would be back to using the same quantity they always did.  So, the answer is to make fuel that you have to use more of to get the same amount of work done.

Over here (USA), they accomplish this by taking gasoline (petrol) which has about 18,800 BTUs per pound, and mixing it with alcohol, which has about 13,000 BTUs per pound.  99% of the cars on the road have fuel injection which compensates by making the mixture richer, thereby using more fuel to drive the same distance.  Now, more fuel gets sold, and the companies can also point out how "green" they are at the same time.  If you drive a modern, fuel injected car, about the only change you will see is a reduction in fuel efficiency, which you will blame on your car.  If you drive something with a carburetor it's more noticeable.  30 years ago I drove an air cooled Volkswagen, and whenever the fuel was changed from "winter blend" to "summer blend" I had to go up or down one main jet size to get it to run right.

The same results can also be achieved by lowering the octane rating of the fuel.  Modern cars have "knock sensors" that automaticly retard the ignition timing and richen the mixture whenever knocking is detected.  More fuel gets burned in the process.

Lately I've been having problems with my Ural, which has carbs.  Over the last two years or so it has become progressively worse- running rough and lack of power (hard to tell with a Ural).  After checking everything else and finding no faults, I started looking into the fuel mixture.  Going up two jet sizes cured it.  The only thing that had changed over the last two years was the quality of the fuel.

OK, rant off.... and I promise not to do it again.

Vegas Pete.
2010 V7 Classic, 2005 Ural Gearup, 1980 Yamaha DT175, 1973 Rokon RT-140, 1969 Rokon MkIII
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jerry atric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2018 at 20:44

OK, rant off.... and I promise not to do it again.

Vegas Pete.
[/QUOTE]

Do it again! Very interesting observations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 10:37
Quite right Pete, the ethanol in fuel does reduce the mpg figures. I'm sure many other additives have a similar effect.
Car engine designers are coming up with more fuel efficient designs which will compensate. That hasn't happened in the bike industry.

A very valid rant.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jefrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 11:28
95RON is usually 5% ethanol. Ethanol has to be marked at the pump e.g E95 (5% biofuel). There is no UK requirement for ethanol in 'super' (97/98RON). Esso Super and BP Ultimate allegedly have no ethanol. Shell VP 102RON available in Germany is the same as our 98RON, but over here it has to be marked as the minimum RON that comes out of the pump, it degrades in the forecourt tanks. RON and MON in America are two different test systems, there is a vague equivalence between them, but the equivalence is not direct, they test different properties.

Cars that ran on National Benzole (50/50 benzole) usually needed their carburation altered. Use of benzole was phased out in the late 50s for tetraethyllead which provided smoother running as well as anti-knock. Since lead has been phased out we have other additives in the petrol. 

Using a higher RON may not provide more power unless the engine management is altered. It usually has a lower burn rate allowing the ignition to be advanced further and then provides more push to the piston. In practice though, without alteration to the engine, it just burns more cleanly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 12:19
Shell VP 100 and Aral Ultimate 102 can be had at specific pumps at stations in Luxemburg and Germany, besides super 98.
I doubt they're "the same" and the whole of both countries is being scammed day to day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jefrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 12:42
Originally posted by jpc jpc wrote:

Shell VP 100 and Aral Ultimate 102 can be had at specific pumps at stations in Luxemburg and Germany, besides super 98.
I doubt they're "the same" and the whole of both countries is being scammed day to day.


Yes we are being ripped off.
However I had my information from the owner of the forecourt whom I've known for years, one of few independent owners, most being franchised. Being independent he's usually last on the delivery run and has frequent arguments over the tanker supply because the longer it takes from the refinery, the shorter the shelf life. The Shell VP goes into his tanks at around 102 but he's only allowed to market it as 98, that being the minimum it comes out of the pump. We appear to have different rules across the channel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 13:26
I would have thought most fuel delivery runs in a tanker would last less than 24 hours, does the stuff deteriorate that quickly?
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 13:50

The rules might differ, my point is that they couldn't sell the same fuel at a higher price by just giving it a fancy name. Higher octane fuel is just not offered in the UK (or Belgium) for "market" reasons.

My empirical finding is that a varying fuel quality may be more keenly felt with poorly designed combustion chambers. For years I've emptied leftover avgas/super 98 mix in my road bikes after race weekends, it makes a tremendous difference in the T3 (much smoother) and none whatsoever in the VTR 1000.



Edited by jpc - 16 Sep 2018 at 13:54
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