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95 Cali 1100i Stupid Question

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Dunders View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 14:11
Hi, All,

I'm revisiting the overfuelling (35mpg) and rough-ish running at speed problems I have with this bike, hopefully for the last time.  

I'm having a brain fart, and I hope it's a stupid question:  Can the timing be adjusted on as FI engine?  

I think not, and that will remove a variable.  But happy to be corrected....

I've had all the sensors out and tested them against spec and a new example of each, and all is well.

The engine speed and phase sensors have no shims, so I'm going to measure the gaps and correct if necessary.  The temperature sensors are a joke, but, as others' bikes are working properly with them, so be it.

If this lot fails I'll send the bike to Slick Bass and see if he can sort it.  I'd rather not spend that sort of money, as I want to sell it this year (I acquired a T3 and an NF in the last 2 years, so the Cali won't get much use) to help fund a nice new V7iii (which I'll use as a tourer).  
Paul

....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 Nuovo Falcone
'75 T3 (950)
'95 Cali 1100i
'99 Duc ST4
'02 Suzuki SV650S
'07 Wee-Strom
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Barry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 15:24
EFI governs the rate and amount of fuel provided for combustion under the various conditions that an engine demands... one of those conditions being the timing. Are you getting mixed up with setting the idle speed?

Having said that, I know bugger all, and even less about mechanical things, so hopefully a grown-up will be along toot sweet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 15:40
The ingition and fuel injection timing is set by the crank position sensor. Think it works on the flywheel on that model.
So no, you can't adjust the timing without going into the ECU programme.

The air gap will affect things a bit, so worth getting that right.

Have you been able to check the resistance of the engine temp sensor when the engine is hot and check that it's reading correct?
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 16:42
Thanks, both.

Barry: no, not getting mixed up, honest!  It just seems counter-intuitive that there's no timing adjustment (see below).

Brian: Despite knowing that the sensor gives the timing data to the ECU, after setting up timing on earlier Guzzis it seems to me that the timing sensor on the bell-housing has the potential for a significant margin of error, so I was wondering if there's some hidden adjustment in there.  I can see that the air gap (6mm ±1.2mm iirc) will have an impact.

The engine temp sensor is reading a range of temperatures pretty well correctly when pulled and tested off the bike.  It also seems to make sense when read by GuzziDiag when the engine is running.  In my Cali this sensor sits in fresh air at the top of the head, hence my considering it a joke.  But there must be some sense in it, as other folks' 1100i s run properly.

The Air Temp sensor was a new one fitted after I bought the bike, as the original wasn't working and the bike was giving about 15mpg!  This one sits under the tank and reads ambient temperature.  I believe in later models it is in the airbox; this seems to make more sense

I've spent ages on this and am losing patience.  As there doesn't seem to any scope for adjustment, the only sensible idea to counter the overfilling would seem to be to let more air in....  I don't have the tools, know-how or skills to make this work properly.  Ho Hum.

Guzzis!  :-)
Paul

....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 Nuovo Falcone
'75 T3 (950)
'95 Cali 1100i
'99 Duc ST4
'02 Suzuki SV650S
'07 Wee-Strom
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Mike H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 20:02
Originally posted by Dunders Dunders wrote:

In my Cali this sensor sits in fresh air at the top of the head, hence my considering it a joke. 


Can you expand on this please, as I can't visualise it?


"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 20:05
Why would the timing sensor on the bell housing have any potential for error?  The larger the radius the greater the accuracy.

Now regarding the engine temp sender, you could try adding a 10k ohm resistor in parallel with the sensor. That would make the ECU think the engine is hotter, and thus weaken the mixture a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 20:26
Is it like a little thermistor that is splashed with hot oil?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 22:39
Originally posted by Mike H Mike H wrote:

Is it like a little thermistor that is splashed with hot oil?



It pokes through the rocker cover and sits in the mist/hot air/odd splash of oil.  Very hit-and-miss.  I have always supposed that the code in the ECU averages out the temperature as read by this thing, and allows for the the implicit inaccuracies.  But it's a Guzzi, so probably not:-)

The air temp sensor is the same thing sitting under the tank.

I think later models do a more sensible job, but I don't have a more recent Guzzi to compare with.

Paul
Paul

....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 Nuovo Falcone
'75 T3 (950)
'95 Cali 1100i
'99 Duc ST4
'02 Suzuki SV650S
'07 Wee-Strom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 22:56
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Why would the timing sensor on the bell housing have any potential for error?  The larger the radius the greater the accuracy.

The timing marks on the flywheels of my T, T3 and LM5 were on the circumference of the flywheel, too, and had to be timed with accuracy for the best running (I had to do all of them when I fitted electronic ignition, and the T a few extra times when it still had a distributor after rebuilding the engine 3 times - don't ask).  

It seems to me that there might be room for error in the machining of both the bell housing hole (for the sensor) and the timing 'blob' on the flywheel which triggers the sensor.  The bike runs rough at 80+mph, so I wondered if timing might be a factor, even though I suspect the fuelling is more likely.

Quote Now regarding the engine temp sender, you could try adding a 10k ohm resistor in parallel with the sensor. That would make the ECU think the engine is hotter, and thus weaken the mixture a little.

I've seen this suggested before, but I haven't acted on it as I've found no guide to how best to do it.  What wattage of resistor?  How/where to fit it for reliability?  I haven't given it much thought in the past, but I'll put it on the list for tomorrow.  

 I suppose a 1/2 watt will be enough.  I should have one in stock.  If I cut the sensor cable just before the loom plug, solder it in place and heat shrink the joint that should do.  Any further advice on this?


The most recent annoyance is the inability to use an allen key to turn the engine via the alternator.  When did that happen? Finding the little nubs that trigger the sensors by turning the rear wheel becomes a nightmare (or a two person job!).

Paul

Paul

....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 Nuovo Falcone
'75 T3 (950)
'95 Cali 1100i
'99 Duc ST4
'02 Suzuki SV650S
'07 Wee-Strom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2019 at 07:13
Originally posted by Dunders Dunders wrote:

If I cut the sensor cable just before the loom plug, solder it in place and heat shrink the joint that should do.  Any further advice on this?

More stupidity on my part, writing without brain in gear. 
I had the wrong connection in mind. Doh!

The air temp sensor plugs directly to the loom (rather than via an attached lead), which, on sober reflection, is why I’ve been wary of making this mod. I guess I’ll have to source a matching plug and socket and make up a lead. 


Paul

....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 Nuovo Falcone
'75 T3 (950)
'95 Cali 1100i
'99 Duc ST4
'02 Suzuki SV650S
'07 Wee-Strom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2019 at 07:22
There is no current to speak of in that circuit so no need for any large size resistor.
I just poked the resistor wires down the back of the plug, just making sure they made contact with the metal connectors inside. No extra harness or anything, and it did what I wanted it to do.
But this will have a much greater effect at low temperatures.

Regarding the timing, have you checked with a timing disc and strobe to see what the timing actually is before agonising over whether it can be altered?
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2019 at 09:44
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

There is no current to speak of in that circuit so no need for any large size resistor.
I just poked the resistor wires down the back of the plug, just making sure they made contact with the metal connectors inside. No extra harness or anything, and it did what I wanted it to do.
But this will have a much greater effect at low temperatures.

Thanks.  I'll try that: it's not a big job!  Will it make a significant difference at running temps? Enough to improve mpg?

Quote Regarding the timing, have you checked with a timing disc and strobe to see what the timing actually is before agonising over whether it can be altered?

No, I haven't...  I've just been mulling over the possibility of an error. When the sensors are back in and the bike's fired up I shall check.  I assume that there are timing marks on the flywheel...  Something else to look at whilst checking the sensor gaps.

Without shims the gap is likely to be too small.  How is that likely to affect things?  I can see that too large a gap would put things out by generating too small a pulse, but I can't see that too small a gap would be that bad.

Off to the garage to play...  funfunfun!

Paul
Paul

....lost in the Irish Sea

'72 Nuovo Falcone
'75 T3 (950)
'95 Cali 1100i
'99 Duc ST4
'02 Suzuki SV650S
'07 Wee-Strom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2019 at 17:56
I think the gap will affect the pulse width as much as anything.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sardineone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 00:55
I hope this isn't a stupid answer.  One thing to check, if your bike is stock, is the charcoal canister in the fuel vapor recovery system.  If it gets full enough of fuel then your engine can run very rich and poorly.  I had a work truck that the gas attendant always tried to round up the fuel to the next full gallon.  That over filling caused the charcoal canister to fill up with liquid gas instead of just vapors.  With the vacuum line drawing in the extra fuel all the electronics in the dealer arsenal could not detect the cause, it was a simple but difficult fix to find.  Good luck fixing your problem.
George

One owner 86' Lemans 1000 (member of the family) / BMW R1200ST (current work horse)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 07:32
This bike will be a UK spec model, so is unlikely to have the charcoal canister.

However, best to check to be certain.

I know in America, a "canisterectomy" is a fairly standard proceedure due to the problems they can cause.
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.
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