guzziriders.org - moto guzzi forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Technical > CARC models
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 1200 SPORT 2V 2008 - WON'T PLAY
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

1200 SPORT 2V 2008 - WON'T PLAY

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
graham550 View Drop Down
Falcone
Falcone
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Location: West Norfolk UK
Status: Offline
Points: 58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote graham550 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 1200 SPORT 2V 2008 - WON'T PLAY
    Posted: 13 Apr 2019 at 15:00
I have probably done something really stupid, but any help will be appreciated.

Bought a 1200 Sport 2v last May 2018. It worked but wanted a thorough service & I have not ridden it at all - put it in the garage until October since then I have carried out a pretty full service over the last few months, including taking out the semi plastic ballooned fuel filter and fitting a metal one. Injectors were sent off for cleaning and testing. It turned out the right hand injector was not flowing sufficient fuel so I bought a brand new Marelli one - identical model.
Everything back together now and fully charged battery.  Once battery was re-connected I noticed the red warning triangle LED was flashing once every few seconds ( no key inserted ) When I first turned on ignition - instruments swept as they should and no warning light. Pressed start - engine turned over few seconds did not fire, not unexpected as it would take a few seconds for some new fuel to find its way through the filter etc, then after a couple of seconds without me pressing the starter it turned over again, did not fire and after this would no longer turn over - just a clunk from solenoid or starter.

Left it overnight, made sure battery was charged, put it in gear and rocked back and forth in case starter pinion stuck. Then when ignition is switched on - nothing happens on the instruments - no needle sweeping etc, removed key - then I hear tick tock tick tock coming from the instruments for few seconds followed by a brief message -
APSB 0016

It started me wondering what I could have done wrong - does a new injector somehow have to be coded to the ECU or is it something else. I am happy working on mechanics but Electrickery is beyond my small brain.
Any sensible suggestions welcome Confusedplease
   
Now: 1200 Sport 2v, Benelli Tornado
Previous: Yamaha FS1E, Kawasaki S1 250, Benelli 900 Sei, Triumph Super111,   Blackbird. Griso 1100, Benelli Tornado, Norge GT8V BMW K1200S, Futura, Falco
Back to Top
stu View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 2019
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2019 at 16:49
May be battery or connection (check fuses). Just searched as you probably have (Breva 1100 won't start - guzzitech.com).

Also check with the Click no Crank thread. But I doubt it's that at the min.

Guzzi's - gotta luv um.
Breva 1100 ABS 2006
E-Plus 20 Inch Folding Electric Bike 2018 :p
Royal Enfield Himalayan ABS 2019
Back to Top
Doug View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Location: North East UK
Status: Offline
Points: 175
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Doug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2019 at 16:58
Make sure all your earthing points are clean and making good contact as well as your battery connections.
Back to Top
graham550 View Drop Down
Falcone
Falcone
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Location: West Norfolk UK
Status: Offline
Points: 58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote graham550 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2019 at 17:45
Thanks Stu, battery connections clean and remade, battery voltage 13.1 v, and I have checked all fuses - and removed and cleaned them with contact cleaner - they all looked good but the 2 x 30 amp fuses looked a little oxidised so I replaced them with new ones.
I will have to try remaking main earth connection as I haven't looked at that yet, but it is impossible to know if the battery leads as corroded internally without cutting away insulation, so visually they look good from outside.
Hopefully the solution will be found at some point and I will be able to tell everyone what it was ! 
Now: 1200 Sport 2v, Benelli Tornado
Previous: Yamaha FS1E, Kawasaki S1 250, Benelli 900 Sei, Triumph Super111,   Blackbird. Griso 1100, Benelli Tornado, Norge GT8V BMW K1200S, Futura, Falco
Back to Top
stu View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 2019
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2019 at 19:45
I'm still hoping it's just the electric path. So if it tried to start then stopped, then seconds later tried to start again. I'd ignorantly put that down to the start button being pressed, the ECU saying ok lets start bike, power dropping (for some reason) like a short duration power outage, the power returns and the ECU was still in "lets start bike mode" so cranks again. As fuse looked oxidised, if you can, try disconnecting the dash (leaver connection under the chrome behind headlight) and reconnecting just to friction clean connections. May be nothing. Apparently, after a battery disconnect the fuel map will revert to standard which will make bike feel odd until the bike "re trims" the running MAP. <Peter Roper> So when back on road and it doesn't feel right, give it a 100 miles (that's my distance) before hitting it with a hammer. But I don't know this for sure. However, I have disconnected the battery and dash and my bike does ride odd and also fuel starves for a second when "overtaking" which I've stopped doing until the bike becomes happy again Embarrassed 
Breva 1100 ABS 2006
E-Plus 20 Inch Folding Electric Bike 2018 :p
Royal Enfield Himalayan ABS 2019
Back to Top
Brian UK View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2014
Location: Surrey
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2019 at 22:09
There is an earth point for the ECU, a short wire, do check that carefully, it can throw up all sorts of errors.

Also check what voltage the dash says is there.

When you press the start button, the ECU is supposed to keep the starter running until the engine starts, or for a few seconds if it doesn't.

The other thing which can confuse things is if the battery terminal is flashed when re-connecting. You need to be very positive when connecting the battery to avoid this happening.
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.
Back to Top
Mike H View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2014
Location: East Anglia
Status: Offline
Points: 6815
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2019 at 14:23
Battery could be fooked, not taking a charge, no good putting a multi meter on and that looks OK, need to turn everything on then measure it, but no dash and click no crank says battery = FUBAR. How was battery left when bike stored? Can't leave them more than a couple of weeks, at most a month without a top up charge, especially if on board electronics is slowly draining it. By same token cannot leave constantly on a trickle charger that fooks them as well.
"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."
Back to Top
lawny View Drop Down
Falcone
Falcone
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 39
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lawny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2019 at 18:09
On the "no needle sweep"

If I break the battery connection somewhere (eg remove the 30Amp fuse) this often happens onmy Norge. The fix is to re-break and remake the connection again. For example disconnect the battery again or remove the 20Amp again and then redo.  Ive no idea why this is so.

On no start you may want to check the terminals to the starter.


Back to Top
guzzigraham View Drop Down
Falcone
Falcone


Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Location: West Sussex
Status: Offline
Points: 97
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guzzigraham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 09:19
Sounds like the classic "startus interuptus" problem posted here many times. The bike will not start because the battery wasn't quite there charge-wise. I've had this happen on my V1200 Sport where my battery seemed to be fine (but wasn't) and no matter how long I charged it I couldn't get the bike to start.    

As for the fuel needing to circulate - it really should only take a few seconds once the ignition is on (before you push the button). You should hear the fuel pump whirr quietly and stop. It stops when the systems up to pressure and the fuel should be primed and ready at the injectors.

If I'm right you can check easily as you will have blown one of the fuses in the small secondary fuse box which sits under the seat at about the mid-point of the gap left by the seat when you take it off (if that makes sense !). From memory it's a 10A fuse.

What happens is that this fuse protects the starter circuit which normally feeds a momentary peak current through the starter button circuit. It's OK to do this for a very short time - but if the bike doesn't start the current remains there for a bit longer and blows the fuse.

If the fuse is blown it'll be that - New fuse (probably new battery) and you should be good to go.
1200 Sport - new to me 2016
T3 California - long gone
Back to Top
Brian UK View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2014
Location: Surrey
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 13:07
It's fuse B, and it's 15A. But if it's blown the front side (position) light won't come on either as it's on the same fuse.
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.
Back to Top
graham550 View Drop Down
Falcone
Falcone
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Location: West Norfolk UK
Status: Offline
Points: 58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote graham550 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2019 at 14:58
Thanks for all your comments - HERE'S AN UPDATE -
I think I am getting somewhere but it is still a bit of a mystery to me. A few points I should mention -
I had kept the 18 ah battery off the bike since last May 2018 and just put it on a top up charge once a month.
Whenever I re-connect a battery I always try and make a positive connection immediately, not faff around making sparks for example.
I have 2 battery chargers, an older Optimate 2 and a very new Optimate 4 with more flashing lights.
When I checked the battery voltage today using an offboard voltmeter it still reads 13 volts so does not appear to have lost any charge over the few days since I first discovered the problem.
So - today, I undid the earth straps at the starter motor. Yes there was a little corrosion, not much but cleaned all with wire wool and contact cleaner, and remade the connections. Did same to battery connectors and terminals and then put key in ignition and turned on. Click from solenoid relay, but nothing on dash. Turned off ignition and after few seconds hands swept dash and error message APSB 0016.
So back to square one.
Then I had an idea, didn't really think it would make any difference but running out of ideas.
I temporarily fitted a charged 3 month old Yuasa battery from another bike - but this was only a 12ah battery so was not intending to try and start the Guzzi with a low power battery.
Turned on ignition and hey presto -  instruments light up and perform their usual checks etc.
So after all this it seems A NEW BATTERY is what is required, and I was fooled into thinking there was nothing wrong with the old one - and the Optimate didn't give me any clue that it wasn't up to scratch either.
So I am ordering a new battery today and hopefully problem will be over. Ermm Will confirm it runs once I have the new battery. 

   

   
Now: 1200 Sport 2v, Benelli Tornado
Previous: Yamaha FS1E, Kawasaki S1 250, Benelli 900 Sei, Triumph Super111,   Blackbird. Griso 1100, Benelli Tornado, Norge GT8V BMW K1200S, Futura, Falco
Back to Top
johnno View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Jul 2014
Location: loughborough uk
Status: Offline
Points: 3931
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2019 at 15:48
When I have this kind of starting problem  I connect volt meter to battery and see what volts drop to when first starting up . 
1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider
Back to Top
Brian UK View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2014
Location: Surrey
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2019 at 18:53
Had exactly that with a car battery recently. Battery about 2 1/2 years old, and big. Showed plenty of volts with nothing connected, but as soon as the ignition switch was turned, it dropped to almost nothing.
It is neccessary to check voltage under load, that's the only measurement which really tells the proper story.
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.
Back to Top
graham550 View Drop Down
Falcone
Falcone
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Location: West Norfolk UK
Status: Offline
Points: 58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote graham550 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2019 at 16:21
Update - Well I thought I was getting somewhere at last - but NO.
Latest is - Yesterday I bought a brand new MF EXIDE Battery -18ah/ 230cca. I put it on charge for a couple of hours to make sure it was fully charged, then fitted it to the bike.
Turned on Ignition - NOW the dash lights up, warning lights go on briefly, I was able to read the voltage on the instruments at only 12.1 - 12.2 volts !
Checked the battery voltage again - 13.1 volts across the terminals.
Just for a laugh I pressed the starter - not a click / nothing.
So I am thinking something is causing a voltage drop but I don't know what at this stage - I still have to check the earth for the ECU, and now I am wondering whether to change the battery cables as I can't tell if they are knackered by looking at them.
I have ordered some 16 mm cross section marine grade ( tinned ) cable as I have a proper crimping tool, so that is the only thing I can think of to do next. It was a beautiful day today and I was very disappointed not to be able to give it a run out. Cry
I've not had this much grief from my Benelli - I thought a simple old fashioned air cooled twin would be totally easy to live with.
Now: 1200 Sport 2v, Benelli Tornado
Previous: Yamaha FS1E, Kawasaki S1 250, Benelli 900 Sei, Triumph Super111,   Blackbird. Griso 1100, Benelli Tornado, Norge GT8V BMW K1200S, Futura, Falco
Back to Top
Brian UK View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2014
Location: Surrey
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2019 at 17:42
The dash voltage is important, and no doubt when you press the start button the volts dropped below the start threshold as seen by the ECU. It inhibits starting when this happens. Just with the load of the solenoid the battery volts will drop, so the dash reading will also drop by the same amount.

On my Norge, I had a problem with low voltage, though maybe not quite the same. Mine was a low charging voltage.
I discovered a very poor connection buried in the loom on the RHS above the relays on the side of the seat. It was in the alternator output feed, close to the two main fuses. Look at the diagram and the joint just above the fuses (24). That one.
The green/red wire connects to the red one.

See if you can get to that, mine was quite burned with the heat from the poor connection. Replacing that made a world of difference, and also made the dash read a similar (though slightly lower) voltage to the battery.

I actually ran an additional heavy wire from the alternator output terminal direct back to the battery, meaning that the fuse wasn't needed either. That fuse might also have a poor connection.

Nowt wrong with the simple air cooled twin, it's the bluddy electrics that give the problem.
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.02
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.